Testing Mash pH

[lancsSteve]

I forgot to test my mash pH on recent (somewhat disaster-prone with beer on the floor due to boiler element coming out of bucket - cue electricity/beer mix panic)

As a result I forgot to test the mash pH - have very soft water and most of the data but not all from water company (no CaCO3 reading but do have an estimate for what they regard as 'very soft' being less than 75.) Used the calculator on this site for a lager.

As my compost bin is not yet in place and I ran out of time I do still have the mash grains in the tun.

I also have some of the unfermented wort squeezed out from the hop residue (saved for potential gyling / kreausening or future starters after boiling it of course).

SO:
Is the pH of the boiled wort the same as the mash pH? Or do the hops change it fundamentally?

Could I sparge the mash grains again to get an accurate mash pH reading?


Does it really matter seeing as I treated water anyway?

Also campden tablets - do most people use them? How/when/why/where?

Still trying to calibrate everything but thinking of ignoring this aspect for this brew and being thankful I saved (well I hope I saved) the brew and avoided electrocution or scalding, seeing how it is and remembering to test in the future when other priorities, such as survival and avoiding hospital, won't be as pressing -

BTW my last pale ale mash pH was 5.3 but I did a little more treatment for that one.

[lancsSteve]

75 what, alkalinity as CaCO3 or HCO3 or hardness ?

Going from this:

http://www.unitedutilities.co.uk/Waterh ... tSheet.pdf

Mg Ca/l | Mg CaCO3 / l | Clark | Hardness
<30 | <75 | <5.3 | Soft
30-60 | 75-150 | 5.3-10.5 | Mod. hard
60-120 | 150-300 | 10.5-21 | Hard
>120 | >300 | >21 | Very hard

so it'll be WELL below 75 Mg CaCO3/l if they classify that as 'soft' and give lancaster 'very soft' in the report.

Other reading is: Hardness Clarke 1.750

EDIT:
Have now got a reading having phoned them, this clarke hardness is equivalent to: 25Mg CaCO3/l

My calcs were based on 50 but now I've got the real data I can use the calculator fully. That is VERY soft though - even softer than pilsen!!!

QUESTION:
So - is soft 'better' than hard as you can add what's missing cheaply whereas taking out what's there is difficult?

[Graham]

If you go here:

http://www.unitedutilities.co.uk/waterquality.htm

Enter your postcode and then click on "Detailed Report", it will give you a lot more information; most people on here would give their right hand to get as much detail out of their water co's web site.

It gives calcium, magnesium, sodium, sulphate and chloride. It does not give carbonate but it can be estimated from hardness, which it also gives to a more accurate figure, but unfortunately expressed as Ca not as CaCO3, so it cannot be used directly in the water calculator without conversion first.

If you give me all the above numbers from the report for your postcode, I will turn it into a balanced initial water that can be entered directly into the calculator.

The upshot of it is, doing a few calculations using a test postcode of WA1 2BX, is that the carbonate is a bit on the high side, but could be be lived with, which means all that is needed is to add a bit of gypsum. Your water might be different though.

Incidentally, although it will not help you now, I am working on a new "Enhanced" water treatment calculator for incorporation into BeerEngine that will take care of the conversions and water balancing automatically. No doubt it will eventually filter into the browser-based version that is on this forum.

[lancsSteve]

If you go here:

http://www.unitedutilities.co.uk/waterquality.htm

Enter your postcode and then click on "Detailed Report", it will give you a lot more information; most people on here would give their right hand to get as much detail out of their water co's web site.

Good isn't it

Was VERY pleased - they were even more helpful when I phoned them and gave me the CaCO3 above.

My postcode is LA1 3EX - have used the detailed figures from it and your (excellent) online calculator but was only guessing the CaCO3 as being 50mg/l not the actual 25.

Analysis | Typical Value | Units
Hardness level very soft (25mg/l CaCO3)
Hardness Clarke 1.925 Clarke
Hardness (Total) 10 mg Ca/l
Calcium 8.71 mg Ca/l
Residual chlorine - Total 0.47 mg/l
Residual chlorine - Free 0.42 mg/l
Conductivity 120 uS/cm at 20oC
Copper <0.0097 mg Cu/l
Iron <12.8 µg Fe/l
Lead <0.205 µg Pb/l
Magnesium 1.28 mg Mg/l
Manganese <0.762 µg Mn/l
Nitrate 1.98 mg NO3/l
Sodium 14.8 mg Na/l

Think those were the most important for the online calculator- I used the average figures of course. Then used 'lager' setting for a wheat beer...

Thanks

Steve

PS. Is 'Home Brewing' going to be republished? I've read and re-read it a few times and recommend it to friends but sadly only available on Amazon occasionally at good costs usually at silly money. By far my favourite brewing book of the (ahem) 6 I have (Palmer 'How to Brew', Line 'Big Book' and 'Brew Beers like those you buy', Noonan 'New brewing lager beer', Daniels 'Designing Great Beers'). I know the British Real Ale one's available again but I also like the info on Lagers etc. in that book... REALLY hope CAMRA will put it out in a 2nd or 3rd edition - hopefully with the chapter titles at the top of the page this time!

[Graham]

Sorry Steve, I haven't forgotten you. I've been somewhat distracted today. I'll be back.

[lancsSteve]

No worries Graham - still feeling rather chuffed to get a response from you in the first place. 'Home Brewing' has been bedtime reading for the last few nights, much to my wife's bemusement!

[Graham]

Steve,
Your water is quite a lot softer than the WA1 water I used as an example earlier, and that was soft.

I am really impressed with your water co's website. It seems it is displaying a running average. Yesterday when I looked at it, some of the figures that I extracted were different to those you posted, that worried me a bit. Today I go back and the figures are different again. Very impressive if it really is a running average and not a bug. So I'll give the figures taken from the web site here, because they could be different tomorrow:
Calcium = 5.21
Magnesium = 0.782
Sodium = 9.39
Sulphate = 9.43
Chloride = 7.27
Total Hardness = 7
The calcium was 8.37 yesterday, and it was 8.71 in the figure you posted. Magnesium was 1.24 yesterday, 1.28 in your figures. Total Hardness was 10 yesterday. As you can see, something dynamic is going on with your water report, and if it really is a running average that's brilliant. Have you had a bit of rainfall up there? However, the changes are small, and probably pushing the resolution of their (what must be) automated equipment.

Quite Frankly, everything is so small that you can simply ignore it all and treat everything as zero. With the numbers jiggled to ionically balance the water, it gives:
Calcium = 5.7
Magnesium = 0.8
Sodium = 8
Carbonate = 4.6
Sulphate = 9.4
Chloride = 12.3

As you can see, there is nothing in it to speak of. It is a problematic water from my point of view, because of the low alkalinity (carbonate). The water calculator will suggest adding calcium carbonate to the mash, but there have been instances on this forum with people having soft water, where it has not worked to raise mash pH and the pH sits stubbornly well below optimum. I don't have an answer to this (although I have one or two ideas). However, a bloke that used to post on here with the handle of Vossy1 (He has defected to a competing forum) lives close to you and has similar water. I am pretty sure that he does not add carbonate to his mash and his pH is fine. When he started treating his water, his beers were transformed from the clarity point of view. Aleman might have similar water too and might be useful for a bit of advice.

You are certainly going to need to increase your calcium levels by the addition of calcium sulphate, and a bit of magnesium wouldn't hurt either.

[Graham]

PS. Is 'Home Brewing' going to be republished? I've read and re-read it a few times and recommend it to friends but sadly only available on Amazon occasionally at good costs usually at silly money. By far my favourite brewing book of the (ahem) 6 I have (Palmer 'How to Brew', Line 'Big Book' and 'Brew Beers like those you buy', Noonan 'New brewing lager beer', Daniels 'Designing Great Beers'). I know the British Real Ale one's available again but I also like the info on Lagers etc. in that book... REALLY hope CAMRA will put it out in a 2nd or 3rd edition - hopefully with the chapter titles at the top of the page this time!

No, they are not showing any enthusiasm to republish it at the moment. I am not sure that I am that enthusiastic either. Trouble is that when they make up their mind to publish something, which takes them months of committee meetings, they then expect it in a matter of weeks. Last time they were interested in republishing "Home Brewing", a few years back, I was too busy to meet their ridiculous time-scale. They then advertised in "What's Brewing" for an author to revise it, with no regard to my copyright whatsoever. That, of course, got my back up. There was talk of certain CBA members revising it, although I was told subsequently by said CBA members that revising it was not their reason for their involvement. If that went any further (farther?) there would probably have been a copyright lawsuit. CAMRA were on a sticky wicket because copyright of any of my books have never been formally assigned to them, despite what it says in the front cover, so it was never republished.

So if they do want to republish, it will be a rocky ride, mostly over copyright issues. They took the piss again with the latest recipe book. They altered, re-wrote and compressed lots of it off their own back, and without my knowledge. That again infringed my copyright. The new and amateurish bunch that run CAMRA books now have no idea what a formal copyright assignment is. They have publishing rights to the books, not the copyright of the books, but they do not know the difference. So anything else I do for them will on the basis of a proper author/publisher contract, not on the basis of a bit of printed paper called an "Agreement". Far too much work goes into something like "Home Brewing" to allow them to do what they please with it, or for them to give it away to whomsoever they please.

So my guess is that it will never be republished, at least by them.

[lancsSteve]

That's rubbish as it really is a good booik - thought about republishing it yourself or through another interested party? There's clearly the demand...

Sad to hear you got screwed about - my parents are authors so I've heard a few tales of publishers games along the way but that's piss poor of CAMRA.

Ah well - glad I got a copy and you're about on the forums to ask questions of Maybe CAMRA will sort their stuff out eventually and come round to respecting authors copyright, asking someone else to revise a book is pure foolishness.

[Aleman]

Aleman might have similar water too and might be useful for a bit of advice.

Thanks Graham . . . I'm pretty sure my water comes from more or less the same place as Steve, and it can be problematical when brewing beers with even a hint of dark malt in. My last Imperial Stout had a mash pH of 4.7, but then I hadn't added any carbonate at all to it, which is my usual practice. I have resorted to using my in laws water to brew dark beers, which means that I now schedule brewing of porters and stouts to when I visit East Anglia or Essex, and bring a 5 gallon barrel back with me. . . . While Morrison's Still spring water is available cheaply and has a high bicarbonate (280ppm) level, it also comes with a high sodium level (75ppm IIRC), mixing that at 1 to 4 with the tap water should give a level of 15 . . . Which for our water is not all that big an addition taking it to ~24 which is acceptable. . . . and should give an additional 56 ppm . . . not really enough for a stout . . . . Going to a 1 to 3 dilution gives 35 ppm Sodium and 96ppm bicarbonate. . . . . I'm going to have a play with my Salifert test kits today and see if the real figures bear this out . . . Sodium will be guesswork, but I can measure the calcium and alkalinity.

I'm still trying to nail down just how much calcium to add to get the mas pH to fall in the right area, but I was at 5.6 last time, and 5.9 the time before that so I am getting close.

[Graham]

I'm still trying to nail down just how much calcium to add to get the mas pH to fall in the right area, but I was at 5.6 last time, and 5.9 the time before that so I am getting close.

There have been a couple of "soft-water" people on here, Jim being one of them, whereby no matter how much chalk they added to the mash their pH stubbornly sat around 4.9. My theory is that although adding calcium carbonate increases alkalinity, it does not raise the pH in quite the same way. You cannot buffer anything that isn't there. Indeed the calcium in the calcium-carbonate goes some way to neutralising the effects, as far as the mash is concerned, so one is taking two steps forward and one step back with every addition. Soft-water areas are often those areas surrounded by moorland and peat, and the soil is naturally quite acidic, so there is possibly not an entirely clean slate to begin with.

It would probably be a far better bet to raise the alkalinity with something that is soluble (for a start) and calcium free; baking powder or washing soda are obvious practical substitutes that come to mind, and stuff the sodium contribution.

Indeed, to add 50mg/l of carbonate (which is quite a lot) using baking powder will only add 38mg/l of sodium (which is not very much). DLS adds a lot more sodium than that. Both figures would typically be halved for pale ale.

Barclay Perkins added huge amounts of common salt to their beers according to the 1936 brewer's journal published on Patto's blog. Really Huge: 3oz per barrel for milds and the like, which equates to 500mg/l sodium and 200 mg/l chloride; 5oz per barrel for "Black Beers", which equates to 890mg/l sodium. None for pale ale though, but London well water starts off with around 100mg/l sodium anyway.

This is very topical at the moment because I am pulling my hair out over a better version of the water calculator for incorporation into BeerEngine. I am toying with the idea of ditching the calcium carbonate row and replacing it with sodium bicarbonate. I have always said that chalk has no business being added to beer, and I am now beginning to believe my own statements.

Thanks for the Flash-block tip, it looks like revolutionising my browsing experience

[Aleman]

It would probably be a far better bet to raise the alkalinity with something that is soluble (for a start) and calcium free; baking powder or washing soda are obvious practical substitutes that come to mind, and stuff the sodium contribution.
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This is very topical at the moment because I am pulling my hair out over a better version of the water calculator for incorporation into BeerEngine. I am toying with the idea of ditching the calcium carbonate row and replacing it with sodium bicarbonate. I have always said that chalk has no business being added to beer, and I am now beginning to believe my own statements.

Well I'm willing to be a guinea pig . . . I'm planning on brewing a stout in the near future so will need to get my alkalinity up to 75-100ppm from around 18-24.

Thanks for the Flash-block tip, it looks like revolutionising my browsing experience

Glad you found it useful it surprised me just how many sites are built with flash, at least now I can enable it only on those I want to.

[Aleman]

It would probably be a far better bet to raise the alkalinity with something that is soluble (for a start) and calcium free; baking powder or washing soda are obvious practical substitutes that come to mind, and stuff the sodium contribution.

Indeed, to add 50mg/l of carbonate (which is quite a lot) using baking powder will only add 38mg/l of sodium (which is not very much). DLS adds a lot more sodium than that. Both figures would typically be halved for pale ale.
<snip>
This is very topical at the moment because I am pulling my hair out over a better version of the water calculator for incorporation into BeerEngine. I am toying with the idea of ditching the calcium carbonate row and replacing it with sodium bicarbonate.

Graham . . . or anyone else who can chime in with an answer I'm adding Sodium Bicarbonate (Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate ) to my Spreadsheet for water calculation and would like someone to check my figures . . . . I believe that 1g of sodium hydrogencarbonate dissolved in 1L of water will raise the sodium level by 279.4 mg/l and the carbonate by 733.3 mg/l. . . . The question is, is that what it does to the 'residual' alkalinity? For 35L of 'distilled water' adding 2.45g of Sodium Bicarb should add 19.6g of sodium and 51.3mg of carbonate . . . which is different from what you have said above. . . . just want to check that I am not missing something.

[Jim]

I've tried sodium bicarb as a water treatment - I imagined I could taste it in the finished beer, so I didn't bother with it again.

I'd have to check my records to see how much I used and the effect it had on mash pH. It was a long while ago, and I'm not sure if I posted a thread about it.


EDIT: Found this thread with some relevant discussion in it - doesn't mention any full scale brew using bicarb, but I'm fairly sure I did one.

[Graham]

Graham . . . or anyone else who can chime in with an answer I'm adding Sodium Bicarbonate (Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate ) to my Spreadsheet for water calculation and would like someone to check my figures . . . . I believe that 1g of sodium hydrogencarbonate dissolved in 1L of water will raise the sodium level by 279.4 mg/l and the carbonate by 733.3 mg/l. . . . The question is, is that what it does to the 'residual' alkalinity? For 35L of 'distilled water' adding 2.45g of Sodium Bicarb should add 19.6g of sodium and 51.3mg of carbonate . . . which is different from what you have said above. . . . just want to check that I am not missing something.

1 gram of sodium bicarbonate adds 274mg/l sodium and and 726mg/l Bicarbonate. Carbonate is about half of the bicarbonate figure.

Equivalent weights:
Sodium Bicarbonate = 84.01
Sodium = 22.9898
Bicarbonate = 61.0168
Carbonate = 30.0045

If you want to add 50 mg/l carbonate: 50/30 = 1.67 milliequivalents.
Therefore you will require 1.67 * 84.01 = 140.3 mg/l sodium bicarbonate.
which will also add 1.67 * 22.99 = 38.39 mg/l sodium.
The carbonate expressed as bicarbonate is: 1.67 * 61 = 102mg/l

For 35 litres 4.9 grammes of sodium bicarbonate will be required, about twice your figure.