Thames Water - Online Report

[Andy]

Yes - that's alkalinity expressed as CACO3 content not total hardness expressed as CACO3 content

Did you measure the mash pH ?

[bitter_dave]

Yes - that's alkalinity expressed as CACO3 content not total hardness expressed as CACO3 content

Did you measure the mash pH ?

Merde

No, I just chucked it in assuming CACO3 was pretty much CACO3 and followed the figure for total hardness.

Looks like I may have messed up mu beer

[Andy]

It'll be OK! How much CRS did you add ? What's the total hardness figure and how much mash liquor did you treat ?

[bitter_dave]

It'll be OK! How much CRS did you add ? What's the total hardness figure and how much mash liquor did you treat ?

I added 1ml for each litre, and probably used around 40 litres in all to make 25 litres of beer.

Oh well, guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens.

[ColinKeb]

does using this stuff really make that much difference? ive always left the water as it is presuming that i wouldnt really taste much in it. if it does i might give it a try

[bitter_dave]

I've chucked a couple of cap fulls in the mash alone followed by another couple in the sparge water, that cant be far off 1ml per liter. The brew was fine.

Cheers Daab - fingers crossed

[SteveD]

Thamks B_D I was missing something I didn't realise total hardness was alkalinity

It's not. The water report gives the total hardness value but not the important alkalinity value which you need for the CRS calcs. I get the same stats from South-East water - *no* alkalinity value!

3 Valleys gave a hardness value of 275 expresed as CaCO3 which is what we want......I believe.

[Scooby]

Thamks B_D I was missing something I didn't realise total hardness was alkalinity

It's not. The water report gives the total hardness value but not the important alkalinity value which you need for the CRS calcs. I get the same stats from South-East water - *no* alkalinity value!

3 Valleys gave a hardness value of 275 expresed as CaCO3 which is what we want......I believe.

I think that web site has led us all down the garden path

[Andy]

Thamks B_D I was missing something I didn't realise total hardness was alkalinity

It's not. The water report gives the total hardness value but not the important alkalinity value which you need for the CRS calcs. I get the same stats from South-East water - *no* alkalinity value!

3 Valleys gave a hardness value of 275 expresed as CaCO3 which is what we want......I believe.

Nooooo. It's the CaCO3 thing which causes confusion as that's the same indicator used for the alkalinity value - but total hardness as CaCO3 is not the same value as alkalinity as CaCO3. Initially I fell for the same thing and bases my CRS additions on the hardness as CaCO3 value - when I measured my mash pH it was too acidic so I reduced the CRS amount until I found an amount which seemed to work for me.

[crow_flies]

Havent we been here before.....

[crow_flies]

I found this extract from an article relating to water in aquariums, which may (or may not) help explain why when I used the thames water value of 278 to estimate the level of CRS to use (30mls for 25l) all was fine - basically for my water area - carbonates *probably* dominate so the figures for alkilinity and hardness are *probably* close to one another, whereas Andy's experience was different because for his water they are not the same.....

key part is.....
In most water supplies general hardness and alkalinity measurements (as mg/litre CaCO3) are likely to be very similar because carbonates usually predominate and the amount of permanent hardness is usually fairly small.

the real answer is either to get the alkilinity value or find the right value as Andy did with some test strips in the mash...


Quote:

Two types of hardness:

The subject gets a little confusing because there are two types of hardness that we need to consider. The two types are permanent hardness and alkalinity (often referred to as carbonate or temporary hardness). The sum of both types of hardness is called the general or total hardness.

Alkalinity refers to the hardness derived mainly from carbonate and bicarbonate ions and directly reflects the buffering capacity of the water. This form of hardness is also called carbonate hardness or temporary hardness because it can be precipitated and removed by boiling the water. Which is why lime-scale forms in kettles and showerheads!

Permanent hardness measures the ions such as nitrates, sulphates, and chlorides etc, that are not removed by boiling. Most of these are not involved with buffering but can affect pH values.

In most water supplies general hardness and alkalinity measurements (as mg/litre CaCO3) are likely to be very similar because carbonates usually predominate and the amount of permanent hardness is usually fairly small.

While there is a very close connection between water hardness and buffering it should be made clear that hardness is a product of mainly calcium and magnesium ions, while buffering is produced by bicarbonate and carbonate ions. The fact that the two are so closely related is due to the fact that most hardness is formed from calcium and magnesium carbonates.

So, as a rule of thumb, hard water is usually well buffered while soft water is usually less well buffered. However, we should be aware that it is possible, because of different water composition, to have hard water that is poorly buffered, i.e water where permanent hardness predominates, or soft water that is well buffered, i.e. water that has high levels of sodium or potassium carbonate, rather than calcium or magnesium. Obviously the simple way to establish the makeup of your local water and pond water (they may not be the same) is to test for both types of hardness. Test kits are readily available for measuring both types of hardness.
endquote



/CF

[Scooby]

I'm not interested in using CRS or the other one I just want to know the concentrations of the relevant minerals and salts in my water and the TW report omits alkalinity and a numder of others so is next to useless

[Andy]

Are you going to treat your liquor at all ? If not why the need for the analysis

[Scooby]

Are you going to treat your liquor at all ? If not why the need for the analysis

At the moment Andy I filter all the water and adjust the mash Ph with phosphoric acid, also adding some to the sparge liquor to lower that slightly.

To use my brewing software to match a specific water type eg Burton I need to know what the following concentrations are in my supply water: calcium ( total hardness?) Bicarbonate, Magnesium, Sodium, chloride, Sulphate and the Alkalinity, I could then add the required minerals and salts to match the target profile.

The TV report does not include those I have marked in red. I'm happy to carry on as I am but it would have been interesting to try and match a profile, if I didn't get close then nothing lost but if successful could have got the salts etc to give it a try

[Andy]

Do you add Phosphoric to the HLT ? If so do you find the element gets a mineral coating ? I ask as I read the following this week on the UK homebrewing maillist:-

"I can't agree with Phosphoric acid in general. It is fine if your HLT and
Boiler are gas heated but I
would not recommend phosphoric at all for an electrically heated hlt or
boiler as the precipitate is Calcium Phosphate (IE BONE) and have you
ever tried removing bone from your elements (trust me from experience it
is not easy). If your hardness is not too high (say less than about
150ppm) you could use lactic acid as calcium lactate is quite soft and
easily removable from elements with a light scrub. However best to use
Brupaks CRS which is a dilute mix of hydrochloric and sulphuric acids
which produces Calcium sulphate and calcium chloride both of which are
beneficial and soluble to a high level so therefore no coating of
elements occurs at all."