Does water affect fementation success?

[SiHoltye]

No, but I believe the range is 18-22 where I have cited the fermenters. It does vary like 22 day 18 night though, could this regular upping and downing be annoying the yeast? I have a brew belt on the way from my brother-in-law, god knows when though, and I would want 2 (or pads). Not sure if this is the problem, and have used yeast vit for the first time this time on both primaries so I'll see if any difference due to YV first, but thanks and if no better it'll be the next parameter to fix.

[Chiltern Brewer]

I'm surprised and puzzled at how many kit brewers report problems with stuck fermentations on this forum.

Daab has of course already posted an excellent topic on this problem, I just don't understand why when you are using quality all malt kits, you should have more problems than if you where using a cheap 1.5/1.8Kg kits and chucking in a ton of sugar?

Do you use a yeast starter? I would consider this essential for reliable fermentation. How much aerating of the wort are you doing before you pitch the yeast? I don't think toping up with untreated water (although not ideal) would cause these stuck fermentations you are getting. If you have to add yeast nutrient, then there is something wrong with the wort or the yeast. One of the biggest improvements I made in my HB'ing (other than going full mash) was when I ditched cheap dried yeasts in favour of liquid packages and propagating from commercial bottle conditioned beers. A yeast starter shows that have an active culture and increases the cell count.

It would be great if we could get to the bottom of this problem, as it seems to be blighting your HB experience at the moment. As Sherlock would say... "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

[SiHoltye]

I wish others we encounter in life were as helpful as Daab. The only kits I've used are 2 can LME so this is in-line with your suggested reasoning for me. I have Brupaks Yeast Vit. At next stuck ferment, which I annoyingly have to say is right now. (after 5 days of Linthwaite Light 1020 on day 4 and 5). How should I administer the Brupaks Yeast Vit? Sprinkle on top like the other guy, or dissolve first? The tub speaks only of adding it when pitching. Does it need a good stir (gentle with rousing of yeast?).

Thanks for your continuing support.

[SiHoltye]

I pessimistically made a starter yesterday morning , Another S-04 I'll add the nutrient to that shake and deliver, with a gentle stir. I'll let you know if this addition got it going again. Pity I've got this starter really it sort of clouds whether it's the nutrient addition that does the trick, oh well I'll report back later any way.

[Chiltern Brewer]

After reading a recent article on yeast nutrients and a comment from 'Sir Clive of Brupaks" My gut feeling is that all malt kits give problems because they 'may' be lacking in nutrients. iirc correctly i'm sure I have seen on at least one range of kits the comment that the manufacturer boils the kit so it's not necessary for the homebrewer to do so. Boiling can remove a large number of micro nutrients including the majority of zinc which is very important for yeast health and growth.
Single can kits don't suffer this problem imo because they are usualy either made up with simple sugars which are easy to ferment or they are made up with spray malt which is produced in a different way to lme.
Just to add a little weight to this theory, a member of another forum had the same problem, I suggested addding yeast-vit but he could only get youngs yeast nutrient (which contains zinc), he sprinkled some on the surface, left it and within 24 hrs fermentation restarted.
That's only a theory though, i'd be happy to hear other opinions on this subject.

I definitely think you're onto something here Daab, sounds very probable to me that beginners would merrily boil away the kit thinking they are doing good when in fact they are boiling away nutrients and hop flavours/aromas.

Ironically the cheapo kits probably haven't received a proper boil during manufacture.

If I used one of this kits I'd treat it like I was making a large starter solution (which in a way it is) and just bring the dissolved LME up to a simmer for just a couple of minutes just to ensure it is sterile. When you're spending £15-£20 a piece on these kits (how much ) a few quid on some DME for making starter solutions is peanuts. The packaged dried yeasts contain about 12 grams of yeast which IMO isn't enough - without making a starter - to reliable ferment 5 gallons.

[Chiltern Brewer]

The point I was getting at though is i'm fairly sure some kits have already been boiled by the manufacturer, the nutrients are already lost prior to packaging and dropped out with the proteins.

Then this is the fault of the manufacturer?

When using dried yeast I like to make a 'cheaty' starter on the day, if i'm making a kit i'd use a little extract and if i'm all grain brewing i'll draw off a little wort after it's been in the boiler for 10 mins.

Technicaly this shouldn't work according to some texts as it uses up all the yeasts nutrient reserves but as I often get lag times as short as 2-3 hrs i'll stick with it.

If it aint broke... I've sometimes had the other the problem of starting the yeast starter too early so that it is "over the hill" (gone anaerobic I assume) by the time it comes to pitching. When you do get it right and pitch with a high cell count (think 1/2 demijohns not milk bottles ), wow what a difference!

I'm tempted to try one of these kits just to see how I get on, to test out some of my new equipment, and to replenish my dwindling stocks

[james_m_r]

I wouldn't use a shower as shower heads are usually bacterial/fungal nightmares

I use the shower when rinsing barrels after sanitising. Should I stop this?
I can't say my beers have had any noticable off flavours though.

[SiHoltye]

Nutrient has not got the yeast going, re-pitch has sunk without trace , have roused gently to attempt to get it back into suspention but it sinks again v. quickly. The rehydrated yeast I added as a last attempt this evening has also sunk without trace. All S04. What keeps the yeast in suspension? Gravity at 1020 from day 5 to 7. Boo, boo, boo....

[Chiltern Brewer]

Heh, even the Pros have problems with yeast:

http://www.murphyandson.co.uk/BrewingAr ... gement.htm

Si, I curious how are you sterilizing you equipment, and if you're not boiling the water that you top up with, how long after adding the 1/2 campden tablet are you waiting before pitching the yeast? Have you tried any other yeasts apart from S04, and if so where the results any better? Which of these 3Kg kits has given you the most trouble?

[SiHoltye]

Hi
Am Sterilizing 10 mins in VWP then 3 or 4 rinses.
Campden goes in ½hr before I drop into fermenter from height.
I haven't tried other yeasts but will next.

The safale starts great but the crust is gone and it stopped at 1020 after about 3-4 days on all 3 brews I've done: Wherry, and 2 Brupaks. I followed Daabs instructions on the last most recent brew (Brupaks Linthwaite light), and included Yeast Vit really hoping for a difference, but the same outcome. Time to keep all things the same and change Yeast perhaps, any suggestions? The S04 also I can't get to resuspend on rousing, it just sinks straight back down, as did any repitches I've done.

[SiHoltye]

I guess they've all given equal heartache, it's frustrating that's all, it's not a life or death thing but if I can work this out and get it successful I could really get into this!

[Chiltern Brewer]

Hi
Am Sterilizing 10 mins in VWP then 3 or 4 rinses.
Campden goes in ½hr before I drop into fermenter from height.
I haven't tried other yeasts but will next.

The safale starts great but the crust is gone and it stopped at 1020 after about 3-4 days on all 3 brews I've done: Wherry, and 2 Brupaks. I followed Daabs instructions on the last most recent brew (Brupaks Linthwaite light), and included Yeast Vit really hoping for a difference, but the same outcome. Time to keep all things the same and change Yeast perhaps, any suggestions? The S04 also I can't get to resuspend on rousing, it just sinks straight back down, as did any repitches I've done.

Good, I often find it helps to go back over the detail when you get stuck (:oops: excuse the pun)

I'll confess I have never used Campden tablets in beer making, and I've only recently heard of their use for removing chloramine. In AG brewing it is normal to pre-treat the brewing liquor (water) by boiling it as this removes chlorine and calcium bicarbonate (precipitates out). However, apparently chloramine is more stable and is less likely to be driven off by boiling.

Where I have used Campden tablets is in winemaking - firstly added to the must (fruit pulp and water) to kill off any wild yeasts and bacteria (you don't boil the must as this affects the finished wine) and then at the end of fermentation to stop the wine yeast from working. Now here's the rub, in winemaking we use higher concentrations - 1 tablet per gallon - but standard advice is to not to add the yeast before 24 hours have elapsed or it will be inhibited. See where I'm going with this? I would suggest if you want to pre-treat your water that you store it in a sterilized container for 24 hours just to be on the safe side. With AG brewing we would still boil the water after adding the Campden tablet and I think this would probably drive off the sulphur dioxide.

It sounds like your methods for sterilization and aeration are OK.

Excluding the above, and there not being a deficiency of nutrients, we're left with the yeast. I would seriously consider changing to another yeast and if you dare try liquid yeasts or propagation from a bottle, and certainly use a starter. Daab may disagree with this, but I have always been disappointed with the performance of dried beer yeasts (I'll happily use dried yeasts in winemaking).

Any way, I guess I'll have to put my money where my mouth is now and try one of the Wherry or Brupaks kits.

[Chiltern Brewer]

Daab, is it possible to over suphite for what is an unknown chlorine/cholarmine level? Or do you think the levels would still be too low to have an effect?

[Chiltern Brewer]

Talking of Gervin yeast:

http://jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopi ... 8107#48107

it's an epidemic of stuck fermentations

I've used Gervin English Ale yeast (for a few successive AG brews) and didn't have a problem, other than it not being "fruity" enough for my tastes.

[SiHoltye]

I laugh as my anguish spreads to others as they debate my fate - Daab American Beers!!! Ha Ha So how do you brew beer that tasteless, beyond me even!!

Seriously, thanks all so far, it's Gervin (Danstar Nottingham) for me next, that'll be Brupaks Honley Mild. Went to the London Drinker Festival today and got re-acquainted with milds - yum! Not for a while yet though got a new kitchen going in from the 10th April so the bottling room is a bit busy. Flamin' skint now, I was happy with the old kitchen but what do I know!?! I'll keep postiin in the mean time 'cos this linthwaite will come of age shortly I hope (one way or the other it'll be bottled in 6 days time).

West Riding Wheat is the other brew on right now and it still has lovely crusty head after 4 days. That's with Brewferm wheat yeast though. Now that's performing how I'd wish S04 would. I'm not really in a position of experience to criticize but I can see the wheat yeast still after 4 days has a substantial tight 'I mean business' head about it. I'm made up by the head alone having had 3 stuck brews!

More later.....