CRS alternatives

[john luc]

I've read that one of the effects of using CRS to treat the brewing water to reduce the carbonates, has a side effect of adding both chloride and sulphate to the same brewing water. I also have read that acids like sulphuric and hydrochloric can do the same task as CRS but allow the brewer to adjust his/her brewing waters, sulphate/chloride content.
My question is,how do you measure these acids as in ppm and are there any issues with using them.

[Spud395]

Is CRS`not a blend of the 2 acids you mention?

[boingy]

Pretty sure someone on here said that they use separate acids. Aleman maybe?

[vacant]

My question is,how do you measure these acids as in ppm and are there any issues with using them.

http://www.murphyhomebrew.com/tech-sheets/tech_ams.pdf

[john luc]

Aleman mentioned in a post that he did not like using CRS because it added chloride and sulphate as well,and he preferred to do this separately.

[Eric]

I've read that one of the effects of using CRS to treat the brewing water to reduce the carbonates, has a side effect of adding both chloride and sulphate to the same brewing water. I also have read that acids like sulphuric and hydrochloric can do the same task as CRS but allow the brewer to adjust his/her brewing waters, sulphate/chloride content.
My question is,how do you measure these acids as in ppm and are there any issues with using them.

Yes, you could reduce alkalinity by selecting chemical conversion to sulphates or chlorides, while using CRS would convert to both in fixed proportion. However, using just one acid wouldn't necessarily eliminate the other salt as it could exist at some level in your water within it's permanent hardness.
As for measuring, could I suggest you do a trial, finding an amount of acid required to neutralise the alkalinity in say 100ml of your water? Then, add back measured quantities of untreated liquor to produce your target alkalinity and scale up arithmetically.

[Aleman]

I do as Jon Luc mentions, I am lucky in that I don't have to worry about measuring the strength of the acids or making up a know solution as i have a pet Lab Tech to do that for me. . . so I can make sure that the method for calculating that stays buried in my dim and distant past

What I do have is a spreadsheet (developed by Wally Brew) that tells me how much 1Molar (1M) Sulphuric or 2Molar (2M) Hydrochloric acid I need to add to reduce the alkalinity to my desired value . . . plus the amount of sulphate or chloride I will add when I do so. One of these days when I get the time I will convert it to a PHP page and put it on the web.

The reason why I use one or the other is to help me control the flavour balance ions (ie sulphate and chloride) CRS works but adds sulphate and chloride in a fixed ratio. using separate acids, I can control that ratio much more closely.

[john luc]

I do as Jon Luc mentions, I am lucky in that I don't have to worry about measuring the strength of the acids or making up a know solution as i have a pet Lab Tech to do that for me. . . so I can make sure that the method for calculating that stays buried in my dim and distant past

That's handy,we all should be so lucky as to have that

What I do have is a spreadsheet (developed by Wally Brew) that tells me how much 1Molar (1M) Sulphuric or 2Molar (2M) Hydrochloric acid I need to add to reduce the alkalinity to my desired value . . . plus the amount of sulphate or chloride I will add when I do so. One of these days when I get the time I will convert it to a PHP page and put it on the web.

That would be a nice spreadsheet to have, looking forward to when this is so.

The reason why I use one or the other is to help me control the flavour balance ions (ie sulphate and chloride) CRS works but adds sulphate and chloride in a fixed ratio. using separate acids, I can control that ratio much more closely.

I understand what you saying here now,makes perfect logic as spock would say. I suppose that without your spreadsheet though,you would not recommend the average 5/8th to try this at home.

[nigelsch]

Don't know if this helps. Similar to Aleman I use Sulphuric & hydro acids separtely to achieve different
water ions; and as my water was 270ppm alk I was sick of buying CRS by the truck load.

My source acids are 88% hydro (11.6N) & 98% sulphuric (36N). I dilute these down to acids that
remove alk at the same rate as CRS 182ppm/ml/L.

I have an xls which, just pulling of a few numbers may be of use:

250ml CRS is 198ml water, 39ml hydro, 13ml sulphuric
- giving 65ppm cl+ per 1ml/L & 88ppm so4+

My separate diluted single acids give
- 130ppm cl+ for hydro (while removing 182ppm alk) per ml/L
- 175ppm so4+ for sulfuric (ditto 182) per ml/L

As I say don't know if this helps, but from the numbers you can see the ratio of ions added by CRS
versus the seperate diluted acids.

Nige

[john luc]

Thank you Nige,
Those are exactly the numbers I was interested in. Having them helps to better understand what I am putting in my brewing water,instead of just,"put in the CRS,dont worry,you'll be grand".

[nigelsch]

John,

no worries. I don't know if you are looking to actually use the two separate acids rather than CRS.
But if you are I can also give you there respective alk removing & ion introducing numbers; dependent
on the acid strength.

[john luc]

Yes I would like this too. I may use the two acids separately in the future but for now understanding what's what and why when using CRS is comforting.
Thank you.

[nigelsch]

Hydro acid - 11.64N (can't remember percentage but normality is the important one)
- takes out 582ppm alk & adds 412ppm cl+ /ml/L

Sulphuric - 36N
- takes out 1800ppm alk & adds 1730 so4+ /ml/L

Nige

[Cpt.Frederickson]

Wherabouts do you get your sulphuric? On another thread some have expressed concern about levels of arsenic and lead in said acid, but have been unable to find another source.

[chastuck]

Wherabouts do you get your sulphuric? On another thread some have expressed concern about levels of arsenic and lead in said acid, but have been unable to find another source.

You may be interested to know that Murphy home brew have just started to sell Sulphuric Acid after I requested they do it. As regards the quality, direct quote from Paul Taylor: "Please be assured ALL our products are bought to food grade specification in line with the FCC and EU regulations. We even have our own ICP-OES for testing metals etc."