CRS alternatives

[Cpt.Frederickson]

Awesome! Last time I checked they were doing a minimum of 25ltrs! I would like to see a little further info so may have to email Paul for some details. Have you used it yet and if so how was it?
Think this may be another thing for the shopping list...

[chastuck]

Awesome! Last time I checked they were doing a minimum of 25ltrs! I would like to see a little further info so may have to email Paul for some details. Have you used it yet and if so how was it?
Think this may be another thing for the shopping list...

They only put it up this afternoon on the Homebrew site. Available in 250ml and 1L. I've ordered some, but not received it yet. Eager to try it.

[Eric]

Awesome! Last time I checked they were doing a minimum of 25ltrs! I would like to see a little further info so may have to email Paul for some details. Have you used it yet and if so how was it?
Think this may be another thing for the shopping list...

They only put it up this afternoon on the Homebrew site. Available in 250ml and 1L. I've ordered some, but not received it yet. Eager to try it.

Hi Chastuck,
Can I ask if you got the sulphuric acid and what you've found?

[chastuck]

Awesome! Last time I checked they were doing a minimum of 25ltrs! I would like to see a little further info so may have to email Paul for some details. Have you used it yet and if so how was it?
Think this may be another thing for the shopping list...

They only put it up this afternoon on the Homebrew site. Available in 250ml and 1L. I've ordered some, but not received it yet. Eager to try it.

Hi Chastuck,
Can I ask if you got the sulphuric acid and what you've found?

Yes I got the acid and it seems just fine. I haven't used in a brew yet, but an experiment I did on tap water shows it reduces the alkalinity just a little bit higher than Murphy's said it will do. Murphy’s is 25% w/w sulphuric acid, which I reckon is equivalent to 3M. Murphy say at 0.34ml per litre this will contribute about 100ppm of sulphate and reduce alkalinity by about 100ppm. My alkalinity reduction was nearer 120.

I bought so many half-price kits from Wilkos in their recent sale that I reckon I will not return to all-grain brewing much before Christmas, so will not know actual benefit in brew water for a while yet.

[Eric]

Yes I got the acid and it seems just fine. I haven't used in a brew yet, but an experiment I did on tap water shows it reduces the alkalinity just a little bit higher than Murphy's said it will do. Murphy’s is 25% w/w sulphuric acid, which I reckon is equivalent to 3M. Murphy say at 0.34ml per litre this will contribute about 100ppm of sulphate and reduce alkalinity by about 100ppm. My alkalinity reduction was nearer 120.

I bought so many half-price kits from Wilkos in their recent sale that I reckon I will not return to all-grain brewing much before Christmas, so will not know actual benefit in brew water for a while yet.

Thanks for this. Mine is also marked 25% w/w but their data sheet at http://www.murphyandson.co.uk/datasheet ... 025%25.pdf says differently and I got a bit of a shock when I put the bottle on the scales.

You've beaten me to my next question as I too found alkalinity reduction greater than their data, even more than you report.

[chastuck]

Yes I got the acid and it seems just fine. I haven't used in a brew yet, but an experiment I did on tap water shows it reduces the alkalinity just a little bit higher than Murphy's said it will do. Murphy’s is 25% w/w sulphuric acid, which I reckon is equivalent to 3M. Murphy say at 0.34ml per litre this will contribute about 100ppm of sulphate and reduce alkalinity by about 100ppm. My alkalinity reduction was nearer 120.

I bought so many half-price kits from Wilkos in their recent sale that I reckon I will not return to all-grain brewing much before Christmas, so will not know actual benefit in brew water for a while yet.

Thanks for this. Mine is also marked 25% w/w but their data sheet at http://www.murphyandson.co.uk/datasheet ... 025%25.pdf says differently and I got a bit of a shock when I put the bottle on the scales.

You've beaten me to my next question as I too found alkalinity reduction greater than their data, even more than you report.

Their data sheet is incorrect, perhaps a mistype. A 25% H2SO4 (W/W) has 25gm H2SO4 per 100gm of solution. My experiments shows 50ml of Murphy 25% weighs 59gm. Therefore the density of Murphy H2SO4 = 1.180 kg/L. From standard density/percent and w/w charts, this equates to strength = 25 – 26%, which shows Murphy's is about right. (1L of 25% weighs 1180gm.)

[Eric]

Yes I got the acid and it seems just fine. I haven't used in a brew yet, but an experiment I did on tap water shows it reduces the alkalinity just a little bit higher than Murphy's said it will do. Murphy’s is 25% w/w sulphuric acid, which I reckon is equivalent to 3M. Murphy say at 0.34ml per litre this will contribute about 100ppm of sulphate and reduce alkalinity by about 100ppm. My alkalinity reduction was nearer 120.

I bought so many half-price kits from Wilkos in their recent sale that I reckon I will not return to all-grain brewing much before Christmas, so will not know actual benefit in brew water for a while yet.

Thanks for this. Mine is also marked 25% w/w but their data sheet at http://www.murphyandson.co.uk/datasheet ... 025%25.pdf says differently and I got a bit of a shock when I put the bottle on the scales.

You've beaten me to my next question as I too found alkalinity reduction greater than their data, even more than you report.

Their data sheet is incorrect, perhaps a mistype. A 25% H2SO4 (W/W) has 25gm H2SO4 per 100gm of solution. My experiments shows 50ml of Murphy 25% weighs 59gm. Therefore the density of Murphy H2SO4 = 1.180 kg/L. From standard density/percent and w/w charts, this equates to strength = 25 – 26%, which shows Murphy's is about right. (1L of 25% weighs 1180gm.)

Yes, their data sheet is wrong, what I'm struggling to find is what, if any, is right.
My litre bottle weighed 1.417 kg and after allowing a reasonable amount for the bottle it would seem to be more dense than yours. It also seems to remove more alkalinity than yours. I'm only glad we test alkalinity after dosing.

[MillmoorRon]

Hydro acid - 11.64N (can't remember percentage but normality is the important one)
- takes out 582ppm alk & adds 412ppm cl+ /ml/L

Sulphuric - 36N
- takes out 1800ppm alk & adds 1730 so4+ /ml/L

Nige

Been looking into water treatment and have a question regarding acid additions.

What happens when the carbonate levels approach zero and more acid is added?

[Aleman]

Been looking into water treatment and have a question regarding acid additions.

What happens when the carbonate levels approach zero and more acid is added?

You remove all buffering capability of the mash liquor, and the mash pH 'crashes' to what may be an unacceptably low figure (Certainly outside of the range of 5.3 to 5.. While conversion will still occur, it may well be slower and develop a sugar profile that doesn't suit the beer. It will almost certainly affect teh pH of the process in the boil/fermentation and in the bottle.

Fundamentally though it will still produce beer, but it may very well not be great beer. It is for this reason that the advice is generally given to add half to two thirds of the acid recommended, test the alkalinity again, and then add any additional acid to get the alkalinity where you want it.

For the sparge liquor,it will have little effect BUT it will lower the pH in the boil/fermentation and bottle, affecting the processes that take place there.

[sladeywadey]

is there another source of Sulphuric now that Murphy's have stopped supplying the HB market?

[Dave S]

is there another source of Sulphuric now that Murphy's have stopped supplying the HB market?

APC Pure.

[MillmoorRon]

You remove all buffering capability of the mash liquor, and the mash pH 'crashes' to what may be an unacceptably low figure (Certainly outside of the range of 5.3 to 5..

So the carbonates react with the acid (changing the compostion of the water) but, while the buffering capability still exists, the pH does not decrease?

Once the buffers have been exhausted any additional acid addition will decrese the pH?

Is this correct?

My O-Level Chemistry is a distant memory!

[Aleman]

No, the pH does decrease gradually while you add the acid, at around pH 4.3 all the alkalinity is said to have been removed (not strictly true, but close enough).

Remember that the pH of the water is not important, what is important is the pH of the mash. Now the mash is a fairly complex self buffering environment, and what we are doing by reducing the alkalinity (the 'buffering element") of the liquor, is to change the pH at which the mash will buffer itself. Pale malt has a certain amount of buffering capability (from the phytin reaction), and crystal and roast malts provide more, which, coincidentally, is why dark beers can cope with a higher alkalinity than pale ones. Most mashes made with an average liquor and an 'average' grist will fall between 5.3 and 5.8, if they don't then we need to remove or add alkalinity. If we have no alkalinity in the mash then the pH will fall outside the optimal range for efficient enzyme activity.

[MillmoorRon]

I think I need to do more trials!

[Eric]

You remove all buffering capability of the mash liquor, and the mash pH 'crashes' to what may be an unacceptably low figure (Certainly outside of the range of 5.3 to 5..

So the carbonates react with the acid (changing the compostion of the water) but, while the buffering capability still exists, the pH does not decrease?

Once the buffers have been exhausted any additional acid addition will decrese the pH?

Is this correct?

My O-Level Chemistry is a distant memory!

Below is a graph showing pH in a litre of a tapwater with alkalinity of approximately 160mg/l as CaCO3 when treated with CRS.
The graph is straight lined (for my ease) between the measurements shown in red.
As alkalinity approaches zero, the rate of reduction in pH increases for a given incremental acid addition, represented in the steepness of the curve. The point of steepest fall is the accepted end point of alkalinity which is somewhere (as already said) around pH 4.4.




Calcium in liquor reacts with malt (natural biological) to release hydrogen and lower mash pH which can be balanced by the influence of a suitable quantity of alkalinity. Liquor with very low amounts of calcium or none (malt supplies some calcium) release little hydrogen such that a small quantity of alkalinity or even none can result in an unacceptably high pH. Some calculators and some brewers too advocate adding excess acid to correct a too high mash pH with a low level of calcium, but I have misgivings about such advice. Acid malts are used to correct mash pH in beers made with low mineral content liquors, but these are the likes of lactic acid formed by bacterial fermentation, a natural product with flavour complimenting the style of beer. While any excess acid used to eliminate alkalinity would remain in the liquor to lower mash pH, I have concerns about doing this with a mineral acid like CRS. I also have concerns about using lactic acids in beers not of particular styles and tastes.