High chloride level after using CRS.

[TheSheeprug]

Hi All,

To date I've been treating my very hard water with CRS, typically about 1.2 ml/L. This has generally worked pretty well for bitters and other styles have worked pretty well too. Not that I'm too fussy to be honest. However, I've always thought it might make sense to be a bit more scientific, so I've been playing about with Bru'n water using data from my local water report (Pettistree, Suffolk). From this I get:
Ca: 156
Mg:15.6
NA: 48.5
Alk: 301
SO4: 139
Cl: 96.5

Adding CRS at 1.22 mL/L to the spreadsheet nicely sorts out the RA and mash Ph for pale beers, but also changes sulphate and chloride to
SO4: 256
Cl: 188
Which is an OK ratio of 1:1.4 which I could further modify, but the chloride level is already flagged as high in the Bru'n water spreadsheet since it's over 100.

So question is, how significant is the high chloride level? Can I ignore the absolute level and just focus on setting the sulphate and chloride ratio, or should I abandon CRS and use a different acid to control the mash ph?

Oh, and HNY to you all and thanks for all the other advice!

SR

[IPA]

I suggest you install a charcoal filter in your supply line to reduce your initial chlorine level. I have one installed in my brewery as the water supply here is heavily chlorinated in summer. According to our local water supply company it is to thwart terrorist threats to our drinking water. Apparently they do not plan attacks in winter!!!! In fact the chlor level is higher than that in our swimming pool.

[Dave S]

He's talking about chloride not chlorine. That's one of the reasons I don't use CRS as my chloride levels are already on the high side at around 100 ppm. I switched to phosphoric acid which does not affect SO4 or Cl levels. You could also use sulphuric which will affect SO4 but not Cl.

[AnthonyUK]

From what Martin (BruNwater) has mentioned you should try to avoid having both sulphate and chloride levels above 100 as it can lead to an overly minerally taste.
As Dave S mentioned you can use an alternative acid or filter/RO/bottled water to dilute your tap water.
Dilution may be a good option as your water is high in most areas to start with.

[Dave S]

From what Martin (BruNwater) has mentioned you should try to avoid having both sulphate and chloride levels above 100 as it can lead to an overly minerally taste.
As Dave S mentioned you can use an alternative acid or filter/RO/bottled water to dilute your tap water.
Dilution may be a good option as your water is high in most areas to start with.

Yes, I think you're right, a dilution with RO water would definitely improve matters.

[Aleman]

Which is an OK ratio of 1:1.4 which I could further modify, but the chloride level is already flagged as high in the Bru'n water spreadsheet since it's over 100.

So question is, how significant is the high chloride level?

Well. if you are in the USA and have faced a lifetime of drinking ASB (American Standard Beers - like Bud, Millers and Coors) then you may well have an issue with the 'over mineralisation' of your brewing liquor, in that I am sure that it could be tasted, however if you look at where the great beers are brewed in the UK then you can clearly see that it is not an exceptional issue.

Funnily enough I don't like CRS because of the fixed sulphate : chloride ratio that it delivers. Not because I think it's an issue as it is, but that I would much rather add my 'flavour' ions in the ratio that I want rather than one that 'someone' has come up with being the 'perfect' ratio.

For most beers once you have dealt with your alkalinity you would have no issues with your water, apart from tweaking the flavour ions to your preference, for the lighter cleaner flavoured beers then you might want to look at using phosphoric acid for the majority of your alkalinity adjustment, and then use CRS to finish it off and tweak those flavour ions a bit.

[Mr. Dripping]

Can anyone point me in the direction of some information/instructions on how to use phosphoric acid to reduce alkalinity??
I'm using CRS at the moment, but would like to explore other options.
Thanks.

[Dave S]

Can anyone point me in the direction of some information/instructions on how to use phosphoric acid to reduce alkalinity??
I'm using CRS at the moment, but would like to explore other options.
Thanks.

If you select phosphoric and the percentage dilution as your choice in Bru'n Water, it will tell you how much to add to the mash and to the sparge waters for a given alkalinity.

[Mr. Dripping]

Thanks Dave, but I have a problem using Bru'n Water as the analysis available from my water company doesn't provide me with all the required input information.....I can never get the ion balance correct.

[WallyBrew]

Not my words but those of AAD Comrie from a JIB publication entitled "Brewing Liquor - A Review"

from the section on carbonate removal

Treatment with acids :-

The acids commonly used are sulphuric, phosphoric and lactic. Phosphoric and lactic acids produce buffer salts which tend to keep the pH of the beer above its best range, so sulphuric is the acid most favoured unless the water already contains a large amount of sulphate. Acidification may be partly or entirely carried out by means of an acid salt, so avoiding the difficulty of handling a strong acid and lessening the risk of over-acidification. Sulphuric acidification is less suited than other treatments to water containing more than a trace of iron, or one containing much alkali carbonate, and it must be remembered that the CO2 which is disengaged can be corrosive unless means are used to drive it off.

Hydrochloric acid is not mentioned presumably because the concentrated acid tends to fume and the moist HCl gas that is emitted on opening the bottle will go around attacking metalwork which includes the reinforcing in concrete.

This doesn't really answer the original question it's just pointing out some old brewing consultants view on phosphoric acid.

[Dave S]

I'm intending to do some experimenting this year with phosphoric and sulphuric by brewing the same beer several times alternating between the two. I'll be interested in finding any difference in taste.

[Dave S]

Thanks Dave, but I have a problem using Bru'n Water as the analysis available from my water company doesn't provide me with all the required input information.....I can never get the ion balance correct.

You could always get it tested by Murphy's. Which elements are missing from your report?

[Mr. Dripping]

Dave,
I've done the Murphys thing. I made two batches of pale ale following their suggested treatment that were fine (very good even) and then made a bitter that was truly terrible and had to be thrown.
The only thing I can come up with is that the CRS addition is throwing the chloride/sulphate ratio right up and giving me a very harsh and bitter beer....almost metallic.

I don't have my water stuff with me here at work, but IIRC it is the sodium, carbonate and bicarbonate information that I am short of. I spoke with Yorks Water on Monday, but they do not test for those parameters.
I also have a problem in that my water supply is on the edge of two regional grids and there is on some occasion a mixing of the two....I think this gives me an issue with variable alkalinity.
I'm actually doing a weekly test of my alkalinity (brew day or no brew day) to see if I can pick up this variation.

[Dave S]

Dave,
I've done the Murphys thing. I made two batches of pale ale following their suggested treatment that were fine (very good even) and then made a bitter that was truly terrible and had to be thrown.
The only thing I can come up with is that the CRS addition is throwing the chloride/sulphate ratio right up and giving me a very harsh and bitter beer....almost metallic.

I don't have my water stuff with me here at work, but IIRC it is the sodium, carbonate and bicarbonate information that I am short of. I spoke with Yorks Water on Monday, but they do not test for those parameters.
I also have a problem in that my water supply is on the edge of two regional grids and there is on some occasion a mixing of the two....I think this gives me an issue with variable alkalinity.
I'm actually doing a weekly test of my alkalinity (brew day or no brew day) to see if I can pick up this variation.

You don't need carbonate and bicarbonate, they are a measure of the same thing. I set bicarbonate to 0 in B'nW. the carbonate can be found by multiplying the alkalinity value by 0.6, the remainder being calcium. Does the Murphy report not give you the sodium concentration? I can't remember.

[Mr. Dripping]

Appreciate your input Dave, that is useful to know. I will do some more sums tonight and have another play with Bru 'n Water.
The Murphys report doesn't give sodium, they tested:
pH 7.02
Nitrate 19.8
Calcium 85
Magnesium 7
Chloride 31.91
Sulphate 113.41
Alkalinity 125 as CaCO3

The raw liquor ratio of chloride:sulphate is 1:3.55, which (from my readings) is a touch higher than ideal.

After their suggested treatment with CRS and DWB it should give chloride of 173.9 and sulphate of 385.4. This looks better at a ratio of 1:2.21, but still gave me rank bad beer the last time I brewed.
Thanks again for your input