bru n water and additions

[paulg]

I have water at 220 ppm caco3 ph7.28
I have today recieved my copy of bru n water and played with it.
I use CRS as I am in Greece and cannot get phosphouric acid sent from the uk (I havent yet found food grade acid here)
my question is do I add CRS to reduce carbonate and then play with gypsum,epsom salts etc. or do I add gypsum,epsom salts first to get calcium,etc levels correct and then CRS to get mash ph right

I am setting yellow balanced profile and adding CRS 1.1 g/l and the mash ph is ok at 5.5 but I cannot add and salts as this appears to raise values too high
my water
Ph 7.28
nitrate 4.1
calcium 78
magnesium 9
chloride 18.18
sulphate 5.87
alcalinity (CaCO3) 220

grain bill
4620 gr pale malt
33 gr black malt
am I doing something wrong?

[OvenHiker]

I'm sure Martin will be along shortly with a detailed answer, but basically you should be using the spreadsheet primarily to target a mash pH and then think about tweaking your sulphate:chloride ratio for the style of beer. Emulating a particular profile is not necessarily the right way to go about it.

CRS adds sulphate and chloride so you might not necessarily be able to perfectly achieve the profile you are aiming for.

To answer the question on order of additions. Both salts and acids have an effect on mash pH, so you have to fiddle with all the values at the same time to get your predicated pH.

[Dave S]

Acid should be added to the mash water before heating it. Salts such as gypsum should be added to the grains prior to mashing in.

[Eric]

I have water at 220 ppm caco3 ph7.28
I have today recieved my copy of bru n water and played with it.
I use CRS as I am in Greece and cannot get phosphouric acid sent from the uk (I havent yet found food grade acid here)
my question is do I add CRS to reduce carbonate and then play with gypsum,epsom salts etc. or do I add gypsum,epsom salts first to get calcium,etc levels correct and then CRS to get mash ph right

I am setting yellow balanced profile and adding CRS 1.1 g/l and the mash ph is ok at 5.5 but I cannot add and salts as this appears to raise values too high
my water
Ph 7.28
nitrate 4.1
calcium 78
magnesium 9
chloride 18.18
sulphate 5.87
alcalinity (CaCO3) 220

grain bill
4620 gr pale malt
33 gr black malt
am I doing something wrong?

First adjust the alkalinity, then add any necessary salts.

The amount of CRS you quote will reduce alkalinity by 200ppm and simultaneously increase sulphates by 96 to 102ppm and chlorides by 71 to 89ppm.
That profile has long time been a good starting point for making most established British style pale ales and bitters from a grain bill like yours, needing maybe 10 to 20g additional brewing salts in a 23 litre brew to provide enough calcium in the desired proportions of sulphates and chlorides. However, with 89ppm chloride, that water cannot be Burtonized, nor conform to the preferred profiles of Bru'n Water.


With the exception of Burtonizing,

[paulg]

thanks guys
I realised that in the yellow profile i had actually specified 15% dilution with distilled water, as you rightly say I cannot hit the profile with my water make up with out diluting
I also didnt mention that I BIAB and so add all the salts to my mash water(not sure if this is correct or I should hold back some for the boil) my reasoning is as all the water is in the mash then all the salts should be too.
I have been adding CRS until the program goes green on the ph and then adding gypsum,epsom salts to try to get as close as possible to the desired profile

[mabrungard]

Yes, add acid as needed to get the pH prediction more in line with your goal. Then you may consider adding other minerals to create a profile that is more to your liking. As you have found, CRS does add both chloride and sulfate and sometimes that may not be ideal for your profile. Using another acid is an option, but I see that it could be a difficult one at the moment.

Dilution with RO or distilled water will reduce your need for alkalinity neutralization. That could be utilized to help keep certain ions within range. Another option may be to pre-boil the water to drop Temporary Hardness. That will knock down the alkalinity to a degree. If the water has high Temporary Hardness, The bicarbonate content could be dropped as low as 40 ppm, but that is optimistic. Guessing at alkalinity is never a good idea since its critical to brewing performance. Employing an alkalinity test kit on the boiled water is a better way to know what you are dealing with.

Of course, CRS is lowering mash pH. Do recognize that adding other hardening minerals such as gypsum and calcium chloride will also reduce mash pH through the residual alkalinity effect.

Phosphoric acid is a good all-around acid choice, but don't discount lactic acid. Lactic acid may be a good choice for many German and continental styles.

[paulg]

thank you martin
I am still exploring the chance to buy acids,I brew exclusively british ales ,mainly milds and bitters.I have no problem meeting the profile with dark beers but struggle with pale beers.I think that at the moment distilled or RO water is my best bet for these styles
I may be able to get acid from england when I can find someone driving over to greece ,the postal services wont send them as they come in an aircraft,I also may be able to find somewhere in greece,I have posted the question on a greek homebrew website.
I dont know what greek homebrewers do when brewing pale beers.

nik from athens if you read this perhaps you can message me

regards Paul

[paulg]

just to update I have today ordered some phosphoric acid and pipettes to be sent to an address in the uk , as I have someone coming over to greece by van in a week or two.
Hopefully now I can adjust my liquor without getting too much sulphate and chloride

[paulg]

ok so an update I now have 75% phosphoric acid,when I play with bru n water and add enough acid to get a good 5.5 mash ph for a balanced brown bitter
1035 og 23 litres

pale malt 2360gr
crystal malt 360gr
invert sugar no2 300 gr
torrified wheat 360gr
chocolate malt 10gr

I have lowered my bicarbonate to a figure of 7.2ppm the target is 90ppm.
If I add more gypsum , my calcium and sulphates go through the roof.
Does it matter that my liquor has next to no bicarbonates if so what is the best remedy?
thanks in advance
Paul

[mabrungard]

There really is no 'target' for bicarbonate. That is just a starting point. Adjust the bicarbonate content of your mashing water to the point necessary to produce the pH you want.

[paulg]

thanks martin
so if the bicarb is next to zero never mind ,add phosphoric acid to get 5.5 mash ph and add gypsum etc to get as close as possible to the green targets

regards Paul

[mabrungard]

thanks martin
so if the bicarb is next to zero never mind ,add phosphoric acid to get 5.5 mash ph and add gypsum etc to get as close as possible to the green targets

regards Paul

Exactly!

[paulg]

well according to bru n water I needed to add 14.8 ml of phosphoric acid to get 5.5 ph .I checked my water with my new hanna rtester it gave me a figure of 210 (when I had my water tested in nov 2012 it was 218 so happy with that).Added the phosphoric acid and retested it gave a reading of zero (0) .bru n water said -15 .
I plan to brew tomorrow it will be interesting to see what reading I get with my ph meter

[paulg]

well got a brew going .I have just taken my mash ph and it reads low 4.9 on my calibrated voltcraft meter.This is the first time I have used phosphoric acid and as stated above bru n water gave me a predicted ph of 5.5 but my bicarbonates were -15 .
I have overdone the acid i guess but what are the effects of low ph?
I need to recheck my bru n water inputs to see if I have made a mistake somewhere,if someone cares to input and check my figures
additions 14.8 ml 75% phosphoric acid
table salt 1.9 gr
epsom salt 5.8 gr


my water

Ph 7.28
nitrate 4.1
calcium 78
magnesium 9
chloride 18.18
sulphate 5.87
alcalinity (CaCO3) 210

my recipe is

Ridleys IPA 5 gallon batch OG 1035 ABV 3.6% 30 units of colour

PIPKIN PALE MALT 2360 gms
CRYSTAL MALT 360 gms
TORRIFIED WHEAT 360 gms
CHOCOLATE MALT 10 gms
INVERT SUGAR 300 gms

HOPS boil time 90 minutes 35 units of bitterness

FUGGLES 28 gms
GOLDINGS 28 gms

Add 20 gms Styrian GOLDINGS last 15 minutes.

Yeast white labs wlp 022 essex ale

[WallyBrew]

I cannot see the volume of water you have treated.

Based on you removing 222mg of calcium carbonate per litre (alk 210 as carbonate + 15 as bicarb) and using phosphoric of 75g/100g then 3.68mL of this phosphoric would be required per 10 litres of water

Did you treat 40 litres?