testing strength of phosphoric acid

[WallyBrew]

Sorry I 'm still confused.
Bru'n tells me with 1.29ml I will still have some alkalinity yet if when I added 1.25 ml I had none at all.
Or is it that if I didn't stir enough their was still acid that had not reacted and this was affecting to test solution? giving an over acidic reading? When there was still plenty of Hardness still to react with it

Yes you need to stir well. Whilst acid base reactions occur fairly readily within a small volume such as when you carry out your test the large volume will require vigorous stirring.

Stir it well for at least 30 secs, leave for a couple of mins, stir again, leave, stir again. The bigger the volume the more effort you have to put in with the stirring.

Please please please avoid using the word in red in the context of alkalinity

[paulg]

ok so it looks like my phosphoric acid is good at 75%

can some one look at bru n water and my recipe and see what I should have added
pale malt 2360gr
crystal malt 360gr
invert sugar no2 300 gr
torrified wheat 360gr
chocolate malt 10gr


my water
Ph 7.28
nitrate 4.1
calcium 78
magnesium 9
chloride 18.18
sulphate 5.87
alcalinity (CaCO3) 220

I used brown balanced profile and did not add in the sugar or torried wheat as I couldnt see how to
I also added
14.8 ml 75% phosphoric acid
table salt 1.9 gr
epsom salt 5.8 gr

the predicted mash ph was 5.5 but I got 4.9-5.0 when measured after 10 minutes cooled to 20C

thanks in advance
Paul

[sllimeel]

Paul

I have input your details and give you 10.8 for sodium as you don't give that figure? What liquor amounts did you use for the mash and sparge?

Lee

[Eric]

ok so it looks like my phosphoric acid is good at 75%

can some one look at bru n water and my recipe and see what I should have added
pale malt 2360gr
crystal malt 360gr
invert sugar no2 300 gr
torrified wheat 360gr
chocolate malt 10gr


my water
Ph 7.28
nitrate 4.1
calcium 78
magnesium 9
chloride 18.18
sulphate 5.87
alcalinity (CaCO3) 220

I used brown balanced profile and did not add in the sugar or torried wheat as I couldnt see how to
I also added
14.8 ml 75% phosphoric acid
table salt 1.9 gr
epsom salt 5.8 gr

the predicted mash ph was 5.5 but I got 4.9-5.0 when measured after 10 minutes cooled to 20C

thanks in advance
Paul

I can't advise on Bru'n Water, Martin will, but what I see here is a world apart from my own experience of water treatment for brewing.
There's roughly 3kg grain and 300g of sugar in that recipe which suggests the aim was maybe 20 litres of 3.5 to 4% ABV, a splendid objective.
HOWEVER, 14.8ml of 75% phosphoric would, according to my calculations, eliminate all the 220mg/l CaCO3 alkalinity from over 40 litres, but that seems a lot for just 20 litres of beer. This suggests there were less than 40 litres of water to be treated meaning the mash water was acidic leading to a low pH. A low pH mash doesn't automatically signify the end of the world, in those circumstances you'll get an acceptable beer more frequently than you would with the reverse. It's the next bit that makes me cringe.

Your water starts with a respectable amount of calcium, not enough for my preference for making beer, but I couldn't put hand on heart and say it didn't contain sufficient to make a decent pint. The problem I see is that as the majority of calcium is in the alkalinity, using phosphoric acid to reduce that makes me think of fishbone.
Humphry Davy did a lot of his great works on this very subject, he, in 1808, isolate calcium, but also identified the proportions of calcium phosphate in the bones of fish, so I struggle to think that calcium phosphate might be soluble while seeing them swimming in water without dissolving. If calcium phosphate is as insoluble now as it was postulated in 1808, maybe there was only 15ppm calcium in you brew which was far too little to reduce mash pH and maybe not compatible with your recipe, yeast and conditioning.

Looking forward learning the real problem here, but I'm wondering if this could just be just beyond the fringe?

[paulg]

ok some more information
the recipe was for 23 litres Ridleys ipa OG 1.035 from the recipe section above ,I have brewed this one several times using CRS but was alway concerned with the extra additions this gave,so switched to phosphoric acid .This was my first brew with it
I BIAB full volume so no sparge water and used 38.9 litres to get fractionally more than 23 in the fermenter

and yes my murphys report did not give a sodium figure but I work with 11 as that balances the anion/cation in grahams calculator
eric what sort of calcium levels should I be aiming for? bru n water suggests a minimum of 40 ppm and 60 for the brown balanced profile I used ,as I had 78 ppm in my water I assumed I didnt need any more but I notice brupaks say 180 - 220 for a bitter ie much more.
I have seen it suggested that phosphoric acid strips calcium frm water is this true?

[paulg]

interestingly I have just played with kia s calculator www.braukaiser.com and input my grainbill and additions and the predicted mash ph shows 5.01 at room temp,much nearer my reading of 4.9-5.0 given the meters tolerences etc.


V1.58
Water Profile Calculator (basic)
user input
calculated data

weight unit kg
volume unit l

water and blending

simple water test
GH KH calcium 0 ppm
dH magnesium 0 ppm
or 0 218 ppm CaCO3 alkalinity 218 as CaCO3


detailed water test and blending
Water A percentage 100 % 1.4 ion balance (%)
Water A Water B analysis mix
calcium 78.0 0 mg/l 78.0 Ca mg/l
magnesium11.0 0 mg/l 11.0 Mg mg/l
sodium 11.0 0 mg/l 11.0 Na mg/l
sulfate 5.9 0 mg/l 5.9 SO4 mg/l *
chloride 18.2 0 mg/l 18.2 Cl mg/l
bicarb 0 mg/l 266.0 HCO3 mg/l * select SO4 or SO4-S based on what is given in your water report
alkalinity 218.0 0 ppm CaCO3 218.0 CaCO3 mg/l

Residual alkalinity 156 ppm as CaCO3


pH change from water 0.81 pH (based on base water and beer info)

mash and beer info

Water use malt weight
total water 38.9 l grist weight 3 kg
Strike water 38.9 l mash thickness 12.97 l/kg
Sparge water 0 l

beer color and roasted malt
beer color 7.2 SRM roasted % 0.4 %
estimated DI mash pH 5.5 (at 25 C / 77 F)

salt and acid additions

salts salts added to mash and sparge
Gypsym Epsom Table Salt Calcium Chloride Magnesium Chloride Baking soda Chalk undissolved
"CaSO4 "MgSO4 NaCl "CaCl2 "MgCl2 NaHCO3 CaCO3
·2H2O" ·7H2O" 2H2O" 6H2O
5.8 g 1.9g

acids strength
% unit

phosphoric acid 75 15 ml



pH change from acids and salts -0.46 pH


resulting water profile for overall water
range*
50-150 78.0 Calcium (mg/l) residual alkalinity -89.6 ppm as CaCO3*
10-30 25.7 Magnesium (mg/l) pH shift from DI pH -0.46
0-150 30.2 Sodium (mg/l) estimated mash pH 5.01 (at 25C/77F)
0-350 64.0 Sulfate (mg/l) * residual alkalinity is for mash water only
0-250 47.8 Chloride (mg/l) lactic acid 0 mg/kg (malt)
0.0 Bicarbonate (mg/l) * 0 mg/l (water)
-18.7 Alkalinity ppm as CaCO3



amounts to be added

salts
Gypsym Epsom Table Salt Calcium Chloride Magnesium Chloride Baking soda Chalk undissolved unit
g g g g g g g g
0.00 5.80 1.90 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 mash
0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 sparge
0.00 5.80 1.90 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 total

sparge water acidification
(only for eliminating alkalinity of the base water)
lactic acid (88 %) 0.0 ml OR posphoric acid (75%) 0.0 ml

[Eric]

Calcium is the most important ion, is essential for brewing and the amount will have influence on the style of the finished product. Beers like Pilsener were developed using low calcium level waters while at the opposite end of that scale came beers like stouts and IPA. A stout made with water low in calcium will not taste like one made with the accepted water and so it is with Pilsener and high calcium content.
The upper limit for calcium is generally thought to be about 200ppm, although that didn't stop brewing in Burton and some other places. The lowest level is an interesting subject, for those who like lighter beers will have a different opinion to those who prefer something with a lot of body. My opinion is 100ppm calcium is necessary for my preferred styles.
I'm not a fan of phosphoric acid, although I have it and have used it to brew and think it produces a residue that doesn't pass on to do the essential work of calcium in the copper or FV. Even if it does, think of it this way.....
You used 14.8ml of phosphoric acid which eliminated the alkalinity. That was 17.5 grams of acid and if there was enough alkalinity then one third of that turned it into about 12.5 of calcium and magnesium phosphates and about 12 grams of dihydrogen phosphate.
If your water supply was
calcium 13ppm
magnesium 1ppm
chloride 18.18
sulphate 5.87
nitrate 4.1
would you expect to be told to add 17.5 gram of calcium and magnesium phosphates, 10ml dihydrogen phosphate, 1.9g of table salt and 5.8g of Epsom salts? Because that is the same as you used.

[paulg]

thanks eric
no I would not ,so would I be better going back to CRS and not worrying about the levels of sulphate/chloride just the ratio ,or is there a better way.
I was using grahams calculator and CRS until the last few brews then bru n water and crs it was only the last brew that I used phosphoric acid.
what is your water like ,what do you use.
totally confused now
Paul

[Eric]

Hi Paul, I'm biased, very biased and getting on, so remember beers before the larger breweries bought and closed the smaller ones and go on to produce those alcoholic flavoured beverages that the public only began rejecting after too long a period for my taste.

There may be as many varieties of beer as there are varieties of water, I suppose that's how they evolved. There is likely more variety to water than we might think for less obvious reasons. Drawing a line south down Britain's eastern coast from Duddingston in Edinburgh, where their favoured breweries used to be for the water, by my home town and on to Dover, about 90% of surface rocks on that line would be limestone or chalk and their ground waters highly alkaline, high in calcium and almost certainly currently full to capacity. While doubting there'll be a similar line of rocks in Australia, but even finding the same, what chance for them to be a supply of water? In USA, many brewers talk of their water supplies from donor rivers, while here my water supplier talks of the magnesian limestone beneath my feet as a major donor to the river. Suggestions that the water supply to the original Guinness brewery was soft from the Wicklow Mountains might just be feasible if it had a climate similar to places the other side of the Atlantic, but as Daniel Defoe wrote after visiting there 300 years ago, Ireland wasn't called the piss pot of Europe without reason.

The first acid I used in brewing was lactic, it made the beer taste horid and not used it for at least 20 years. I had good results with CRS for several years but now also have sulphuric, hydrochloric, phosphoric and for brews with hops giving citrus notes I have used a proportion of citric acid crystals with acceptable results. I'd have faith in phosphoric acid if brewing books advised the addition of phosphates when making beer. I have no similar reservations for hydrochloric and sulphuric for chlorides and sulphates have long been advocated as beneficial salts.

My water is
Ca 95ppm
Mg 47ppm
Na 33ppm
SO4 135ppm
Chloride 53
Alkalinity ~250ppm CaCO3

I use acid to reduce mash water alkalinity to a level to match the grains. Sparge water has lower alkalinity.
Salts are added to give the preferred level of calcium which for me averages say 150ppm.
The salts and acid are chosen to give the desired sulphate:chloride ratio depending whether the beer is to be hop or malt dominant.

[paulg]

thanks eric
I to was attempting to use acid to match the grain to get the correct ph and then add minerals to get sulphate/chloride ratios
I was concerned the CRS was pushing the levels of sulphate/chloride too high although still at the correct ratios.
this is why I have tried phosphoric acid .
Inputting my additions into different calculators have given my projected mash ph much closer to my actual 4.9-5.0 measured.
bru n water predicted 5.5 .
I think maybe I am using the bru n water calculator incorrectly and will try another calculator to decide how much acid to add to match the grain bill and then work the salt additions to give the more english calcium value 180 -220 for a bitter as opposed to the 50 -150 advised by bru n water and our friends across the water in usa.
by the way I may or may not be as old as you but have also drunk some beers that are now a pale shadow of there former self or no longer exist, and now living in greece that is why I brew my own but strive for ever to improve them

thanks for your input
Paul