Where to get my Water analysed?

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
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Aleman
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Re: Where to get my Water analysed?

Post by Aleman » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:03 pm

barneey wrote:& for the same amount of money you could get your water tested once a month for a year to build a water profile ;) useful if you water bounces around a lot, mine doesn't really change at all so am fairly confident the figures can be used brew to brew. Always check Alkalinity & you could check TDS also before each brew.
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Aleman wrote:Latest results from Phoenix Analytical (Neil aka wallybrew)

Water supply name: Blackpool South
Water supply code: Z070

Code: Select all

              2015                          2014
              26th Mar  21st Feb  21st Jan  22nd Nov  28th Oct  11th Feb 
Calcium    -    17.8      20.6     14.8       30.8      35.7      24.3
Magnesium  -     3.0       3.3      2.1        6.9       8.3       3.1
Sodium     -    11.3      12.0      8.2       15.4      16.2      12.0  
Potassium  -     0.7       0.9     <0.5        0.6       1.0       0.7

Sulphate   -    33.3      37.3     27.4       50.6      68.2      42.8
Chloride   -    12.0      11.3      8.5       11.7      15.6      11.1
Phosphate  -     6.1       6.8      5.9        6.2       6.2       4.7
Nitrate    -     1.9       1.7      1.3        1.7       2.1       1.3

Alkalinity -    30.0      33.0     18.0       67.0      67.0      32.0  

I'm really hoping we get a dry summer so that the alkalinity hits 135 like it did 2 years ago :D
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Eric
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Re: Where to get my Water analysed?

Post by Eric » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:26 pm

Aleman wrote:Someone was putting a test kit together in the US . . .Cost was somewhere in the region of 200 quid IIRC
It's cheaper than that, especially if you've already a decent pH meter. Details can be found here and you might see it isn't particularly quick and easy in use. Further, measurement of sulphate is a bit aritrary (subjective) while the calculation for sodium will compound all other errors and totally disregards other potential major ions of potassium, nitrate and phosphate which included could significantly alter the result. Of course, done this way and getting the last sum right, entering your findings into some water treatment calculator it will tell you your water balances, even if the measurements are wrong.
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Re: Where to get my Water analysed?

Post by DerbyshireNick » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:32 pm

Aleman wrote: I'm really hoping we get a dry summer so that the alkalinity hits 135 like it did 2 years ago :D
Hope? I am rocking 108 mg/L as tested this evening including a bang on calibration sanity check with the provided solution.

I am sure that's not even "high" but has caused me enough problems.

The stout I just brewed with it though.... its gonna set the world on fire. Never tasted a beer at pitch+5 days like it.
Fermenting Cascade / Falconers US-IPA
Conditioning Jims ESB
Drinking Cascade Pale Ale
Drinking English IPA
Drinking Raspberry Wheat

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Aleman
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Re: Where to get my Water analysed?

Post by Aleman » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:47 pm

While I like my pilsners I love my Stouts :(, although having said that it did mess with the fish in my Amazonian planted tank :( :evil:
[url=http://forum.craft%20brewing.org.uk]The statement You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink has a direct corollary in Humans . . . . . . .

"You can give someone all the information . . . . but you can't make them think!!" [/url]

The Effinbrewery Web Site

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Eric
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Re: Where to get my Water analysed?

Post by Eric » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:16 pm

barneey wrote:& for the same amount of money you could get your water tested once a month for a year to build a water profile ;) useful if you water bounces around a lot, mine doesn't really change at all so am fairly confident the figures can be used brew to brew. Always check Alkalinity & you could check TDS also before each brew.
My water varies greatly as can be seen, but as you advise, here is a graph of TDS/cations from measurements by WallyBrew.

Image


There's another for TDS/anions.
A lot easier and quicker to use and a lot cheaper.

Image

Edited to restabish original graph and add a second.
Last edited by Eric on Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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Re: Where to get my Water analysed?

Post by Yosh » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:04 am

Is wallybrew still on the forum? I can't seem to find him.
2015 and back in the brew game.
Patiently waiting for a shiney new Braumeister *droooll*
Pre Braumeister arrival checklist: Build DIY stir plate (parts ordered). Purchase fermenters, recipe book and ingredients for 3 brews (pending). Investigate adjusting ph and water hardness (pending),Get told off for spending too much money (pending).

Thanks again to everyone who has kindly taken time to share their knowledge with me.

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Re: Where to get my Water analysed?

Post by WallyBrew » Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:31 am

Yosh wrote:Is wallybrew still on the forum? I can't seem to find him.
Yes

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Re: Where to get my Water analysed?

Post by Dave S » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:55 pm

Pinto wrote:
sladeywadey wrote:We used to get this done by Murphy's - what does wallybrew offer in addition to Murphy's?
Cheaper for a start, and Wallybrew being a member here, is easy to get hold of and a very friendly and helpful chap. There have also been documented issues with Murphy's reports (search for examples) and to my knowledge, no such issues with WB reports....

As the BBC say....other analysis services are available :lol:
I don't know about the friendly bit :flip:
Best wishes

Dave

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Re: Where to get my Water analysed?

Post by stibnite » Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:16 pm

[quote="Eric"][quote="Aleman"]Someone was putting a test kit together in the US . . .Cost was somewhere in the region of 200 quid IIRC[/quote]

It's cheaper than that, especially if you've already a decent pH meter. Details can be found [url=http://www.lamotte.com/en/food-beverage/7188-01.html]here[/url] and you might see it isn't particularly quick and easy in use. Further, measurement of sulphate is a bit aritrary (subjective) while the calculation for sodium will compound all other errors and totally disregards other potential major ions of potassium, nitrate and phosphate which included could significantly alter the result. Of course, done this way and getting the last sum right, entering your findings into some water treatment calculator it will tell you your water balances, even if the measurements are wrong.[/quote]

you can get the kit in the uk from sword scientific - IMO lamotte kits are not great

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Eric
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Re: Where to get my Water analysed?

Post by Eric » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:34 pm

stibnite wrote:
Eric wrote:
Aleman wrote:Someone was putting a test kit together in the US . . .Cost was somewhere in the region of 200 quid IIRC
It's cheaper than that, especially if you've already a decent pH meter. Details can be found here and you might see it isn't particularly quick and easy in use. Further, measurement of sulphate is a bit aritrary (subjective) while the calculation for sodium will compound all other errors and totally disregards other potential major ions of potassium, nitrate and phosphate which included could significantly alter the result. Of course, done this way and getting the last sum right, entering your findings into some water treatment calculator it will tell you your water balances, even if the measurements are wrong.
you can get the kit in the uk from sword scientific - IMO lamotte kits are not great
Didn't know about them being stocked in the UK, now seen their website. Thanks for this and yas, those test kits do look a bit crude.
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Re: Where to get my Water analysed?

Post by Jocky » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:16 am

Eric wrote:
barneey wrote:& for the same amount of money you could get your water tested once a month for a year to build a water profile ;) useful if you water bounces around a lot, mine doesn't really change at all so am fairly confident the figures can be used brew to brew. Always check Alkalinity & you could check TDS also before each brew.
My water varies greatly as can be seen, but as you advise, here is a graph of TDS/cations from measurements by WallyBrew.

Image


There's another for TDS/anions.
A lot easier and quicker to use and a lot cheaper.

Image

Edited to restabish original graph and add a second.
What is this actually showing and how do you use it?

It looks to me like it's the proportion of each of the cations/anions as part of TDS? And does this assume that your water source does not change, so the ratios of your ions stay roughly the same and only the TDS changes?
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Eric
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Re: Where to get my Water analysed?

Post by Eric » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:17 am

Jocky wrote:
Eric wrote:
barneey wrote:& for the same amount of money you could get your water tested once a month for a year to build a water profile ;) useful if you water bounces around a lot, mine doesn't really change at all so am fairly confident the figures can be used brew to brew. Always check Alkalinity & you could check TDS also before each brew.
My water varies greatly as can be seen, but as you advise, here is a graph of TDS/cations from measurements by WallyBrew.

Image


There's another for TDS/anions.
A lot easier and quicker to use and a lot cheaper.

Image

Edited to restabish original graph and add a second.
What is this actually showing and how do you use it?
Pure water is very rare as it dissolves parts of many elements and compounds it contacts and so can vary substantially from place to place and also frequently with time.
A beer can be made using unaltered water from any UK regulated supplier while treatment can substantially change the finished product, but unless it is know what the water initially contained, any conclusions drawn might be wrong and lead to wasted effort and poorer results. Water company reports are historical and not always suitable for our purposes. Apart from measuring alkalinity, general hardness and TDS, testing is complicated and requires expensive equipment and so, in my opinion, it is worth having it done by a professional.
A downside to this is that when your water varies, and many do, your data can be misleading, so to deal with this you might have a series of tests done and choose the most appropriate on the day you brew. A Salifert Alkalinity kit does a test in a few minutes for less than 10 pence, a general hardness test much the same although I find I don't need to do this. A TDS meter can be bought for about £5 and should last a few years and the test takes a few seconds.
As these dissolved materials can influence the brewing processes it is advisable to know what they are and in what quantity before attempting serious water treatment.
The graphs plots measured concentrations of the major cations and anions that influence brewing processes against the measured Total Dissolved Solids.

Jocky wrote:It looks to me like it's the proportion of each of the cations/anions as part of TDS? And does this assume that your water source does not change, so the ratios of your ions stay roughly the same and only the TDS changes?
Wallybrew analysed my water several times during 2014 when there was substantial variation in its mineral content. I then plotted the graphs to show there was reasonable correlation between TDS and major ion concentration by their proximity to a straight line. Accordingly I can take an alkalinity reading to adjust the alkalinity with acid and a TDS reading on the day I brew to be reasonably confident of the magnitude of major ion concentration and what amount of salt additions might be needed.
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Re: Where to get my Water analysed?

Post by stibnite » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:57 pm

Eric - Dropcount kits are always a little crude as the size and pressure of your hand determines the size of the drop - unfortunately hardness, alkalinity and chloride don't lend them selves to a simple colorimetric test so a "titration" via a dropcount is the best low cost way forward.

there are a couple of Uk companies who could make this up like droptestkits but I don't think there is the demand for it at the moment

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Eric
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Re: Where to get my Water analysed?

Post by Eric » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:53 am

stibnite wrote:Eric - Dropcount kits are always a little crude as the size and pressure of your hand determines the size of the drop - unfortunately hardness, alkalinity and chloride don't lend them selves to a simple colorimetric test so a "titration" via a dropcount is the best low cost way forward.

there are a couple of Uk companies who could make this up like droptestkits but I don't think there is the demand for it at the moment
Have you an idea of what such a kit might cost and how accurate the results could be? For alkalinity the Salifert kit is good enough for our purposes but there doesn't seem to be many other low cost kits for the others.
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Re: Where to get my Water analysed?

Post by Jocky » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:39 am

Eric wrote:
Jocky wrote:It looks to me like it's the proportion of each of the cations/anions as part of TDS? And does this assume that your water source does not change, so the ratios of your ions stay roughly the same and only the TDS changes?
Wallybrew analysed my water several times during 2014 when there was substantial variation in its mineral content. I then plotted the graphs to show there was reasonable correlation between TDS and major ion concentration by their proximity to a straight line. Accordingly I can take an alkalinity reading to adjust the alkalinity with acid and a TDS reading on the day I brew to be reasonably confident of the magnitude of major ion concentration and what amount of salt additions might be needed.
Ok, thanks. It sounds like my understanding was correct then.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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