Alkalinity level for this brew

[rob-63]

My next brew is probably going to be an Owd Roger clone with the following grain bill:

6.6 kg Maris Otter Pale (90.4%)
0.7 kg Brown Malt (9.6%)

My water has an alkalinity of around 136 mg/L, which I have been leaving as is for porters or stouts (for a pale I try to get it down
to around 40). Is this an ok level for the Owd Roger?

Also, should I be aiming for the same chloride to sulphate ratio of around 2:1 as I do for a stout and porter?

[Aleman]

I'd possibly aim for around 50-60, so 130 is way out of the ball park

For me I'd probably go with a more sulphate forward profile for a big beer simply that you need to overcome that sweetness, plus as the beer ages the sweetness will come to dominate . . . 2:1 Sulphate to chloride with about 75mg/l chloride

[rob-63]

Thanks Aleman.

Will the 10% of brown malt not have a similar affect to the mash pH as the dark grains in a porter?

I thought that dark grains increase the acidity of the mash meaning it's better to have higher alkalinity water?

[BenB]

Quick mini mash to test?

[Aleman]

Will the 10% of brown malt not have a similar affect to the mash pH as the dark grains in a porter?

I thought that dark grains increase the acidity of the mash meaning it's better to have higher alkalinity water?

Not all 'dark' grains have as big an effect on mash pH as you might expect . . . Crystal malts have a much bigger effect. The difference between 5% 120 EBC Crystal and 5% Roast barley in a mash is surprising . . . The crystal has a bigger effect.

It's going to be down to just how brown your malt is, but I would bet it's going to be around the 150EBC mark, Chocolate is up at around 600 and Roast Barley and Black malts are way up there at 1200-1400.

If I'm using a grist I'm unfamiliar with, I will run a series of test mini mashes (300ml of water) with the grist and waters of different alkalinities to determine what the 'optimum' alkalinity for the grist will be, it only takes an hour or so to do.

[rob-63]

My brown malt is 480 EBC.

I've never done a test mini mash before. To your 300ml of water you add an amount of grains, then test pH after a certain time?

[Aleman]

Blimey that is dark

Mini mash - Take 100g of your grist, slightly finer grind (*) if you can arrange it, and mix it with 250ml of liquor at 65C. Keep it at 65C for 10 minutes, but stir a couple of times if you can. . . Take a sample of the liquor after 10 minutes cool it rapidly to 20C and check the pH with a reliable, accurate and calibrated pH Meter. Repeat for other levels of alkalinity . . . if you get used to it, you can do 6 or 7 at a time

(*) I run my grist for the mini mashes through a coffee grinder set to very coarse so its more of a very coarse ground flour rather than a 'proper' grind.

[rob-63]

I think I need to check that EBC... I'm only going by a note I have to hand, not the grain label itself.

Thanks for the process, I'll give it a go with some of my malts.

Then it's just a case of what to do with the results, as the grain bill will only have a small percentage of those tested.

[Dave S]

Blimey that is dark

It certainly is. The Brown Malts I've seen are more around the 150 mark. I would double check that.

[Aleman]

Thanks for the process, I'll give it a go with some of my malts.

You don't test the malts individually but the grist so a mixture of 91% pale and 9% Brown . . . Then vary the alkalinity in the liquor

[rob-63]

Well, I checked the Brown malt, and the label definitely says EBC 480. Now I am wondering if the 9.6% is too much for the recipe.....

[Aleman]

I would have thought at nearly 500EBC that is falling into the range of Chocolate malt.

Looking at teh malt miller site his Brown malt is 120-140EBC, he has Pale Chocolate at 500-550 and Chocolate at 950.

Crisps Maltings list Brown at 120-150
Warminster list theirs as 95-130.

I don't know where Adrian sourced that malt from, but it's way out of spec for what I and other brewers would know as brown malt, I'd also suspect that it was different from what the original recipe used.

If you are going to use it I agree with you that 9% might be too much. If you are going strictly for colour then you could reduce it by 2/3rds so around 225g, but the flavour profile will be different as well . . . dramatically so ?? no idea, but I would have expected some biscuity flavours from Brown malt, where with that darker roast you are going to get more of a typical roast/chocolate malt flavour profile

[rob-63]

It does seem to be way out on typical spec of a brown malt, and definitely not as was intended in the original recipe.

I think I'll get a new batch of brown malt for this brew, so that I'm more confident it'll turn out closer to the intended finished beer.

[Jocky]

Well, I checked the Brown malt, and the label definitely says EBC 480. Now I am wondering if the 9.6% is too much for the recipe.....

I also got a pack of that brown malt recently. And I compared it to a pack of 150EBC brown malt I already had to hand. I can't see a difference in colour, so I had presumed that it had been mislabelled.

I'll check more carefully tonight, perhaps do a taste test too.

[Jocky]

Paul at THBS says that he thinks the brown malt I purchased this week will have come from Warminster, and so would be in the range of 90-130 EBC - the packet is wrong.