Any opinions re a (English) Barley Wine water profile

[BenB]

My next brew is one for long term storage. In fact what with the 3 month Oktoberfest I've just bottled and will be lagering over the next few months I'm rapidly running out of places to brew/store/condition/lager beer. Got to build an extension to my shed extension to hold another freezer

Anyway, going to brew a Barley Wine (which I might called Barley Champagne cos it's fizzy init).

I'm coming round to the minerally side of life so thought about something with a good dollop of Calcium. In the absence of information to the contrary I was thinking of something like:

Calcium 150
Magnesium 10
Sodium 40
Sulphate 200
Chloride 130

what does anyone reckon? I thought a 2:1 with a Barley Wine might be too much because I want to emphasize the malt. 1.5:1

I'm obviously hoping to get it about right from the beginning given how long I have to lay it down for to improve. I've approximated the max grist/water my mash tun can take. I'll be bottling in 330ml bottles so don't want too long a brew length- bottled 80 bottles yesterday and that was more than enough!

[Eric]

A typical water with that mineral content would likely have alkalinity in the order of 100mg/l as CaCO3. That I would consider to be too great.

[BenB]

True. I guess I was thinking more approximate calcium levels and ratios. I'll plug it into BrunWater for the alkalinity side of things. No doubt a mix of Ashbeck and tap in a ratio yet to be decided!

[Eric]

Yes.
150ppm calcium may be near the lower end of my range for a barley wine. It's importance is too frequently underestimated in today's world with high demand for something cold, fizzy, hoppy and well filtered, which barley wine is normally not.

All calcium in a brew will be attached to something, similarly for magnesium and sodium. Those major ions are mostly sulphate, chloride and bicarbonate. Half the calcium will usually be lost (depositing itself with items not wanted in the next stages) in the mash, sulphate and chloride will continue into the final beer to influence its taste and the drinker's perception, but bicarbonate in excess will wreak chemical havoc in the mash lasting through to the finished product.
Just over 100ppm of your calcium with the magnesium and sodium is needed to accompany the chosed sulphate and chloride levels meaning, so to balance things there could be over 100ppm alkalinity measured as calcium carbonate. This would cause mash pH to be higher than would allow the making of a high quality beer of this type.
For a balance with lower alkalinity, say 30ppm as CaCO3, and keeping your sulphate:chloride ratio you would need to have 240ppm sulphate and 155 chloride.

I can't see anything wrong with that profile, don't know what Bru'nWater might advise.

[BenB]

Hi Eric,

thanks for the input. Really appreciate it. Yes, I reckon a higher sulphate:chloride is required (even if it comes along in the form of CRS). I've got some 80% phosphoric acid for pH adjustment but haven't used it due to concern about oxolate formation.

I've plugged it all into Bru'N water and it seems to work. pH comes in at 5.48 (room temperature) which seems okay for a darker beer- might try and get it a bit lower though. Only thing which is bothering me is that both Beersmith and Bru'N water are giving an estimated EBC of 14.... which seems just plain wrong. Might have to go and recheck the recipe. See what the book (Greg Hughes one) shows for EBC and double check the ingredients.

9% beer with an EBC of 14 sounds like Tennants Extra Not quite what I'm aiming for here!

[WallyBrew]

I've got some 80% phosphoric acid for pH adjustment but haven't used it due to concern about oxolate formation.

Phosphoric has nothing to do with oxalate formation but it may have an effect on the calcium.

Only thing which is bothering me is that both Beersmith and Bru'N water are giving an estimated EBC of 14.... which seems just plain wrong. Might have to go and recheck the recipe. See what the book (Greg Hughes one) shows for EBC and double check the ingredients.

9% beer with an EBC of 14 sounds like Tennants Extra Not quite what I'm aiming for here!

Assuming your malt starts with colour of 5 and it is an all malt mash then on boiling this will change to 8 to 10. The colour is based on a 10% mash or about 1030 so if you are brewing at 1090 your colour should be 24 to 30.

[BenB]

I did not know that- you would think Beersmith etc would account for the gravity then in their estimated beer colour!