Confused...bl**dy water treatment!

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
Post Reply
Troutman47
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:28 pm
Location: North Tawton

Confused...bl**dy water treatment!

Post by Troutman47 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:17 pm

Water treatment...

Drives me mad!

I just don't understand it!

So just read in another post that the top up liquor should be treated as sparge liquor!
I've been treating it as mash liquor!

So if I needed 10l for the mash and say 12l for the top up I've treated the mash with gypsum for 22l!

Apparently wrong! #-o

So what do I do with the sodium chloride flakes?
I aim for 36l pre boil and treat the 36l with the flakes or should I be treating the sparge liquor with the flakes?
Or is it nothing in the sparge liquor?

User avatar
Goulders
Under the Table
Posts: 1039
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:14 pm

Re: Confused...bl**dy water treatment!

Post by Goulders » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:43 pm

I don't know what your water profile is, but if your calcium is pretty high anyway just add the salts to the copper (boil). Otherwise add 2/3 to the mash and 1/3 to the boil.

User avatar
Aleman
It's definitely Lock In Time
Posts: 6156
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:56 am
Location: Mashing In Blackpool, Lancashire, UK
Contact:

Re: Confused...bl**dy water treatment!

Post by Aleman » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:47 pm

OK, It's really very simple.

If you've got the alkalinity of the liquor right the mash pH will falls somewhere between 5.3 and 5.8. If you add calcium salts to the mash liquor this will encourage the mash pH to fall lower if you need it to.

Now, onto 'sparge' liquor. Due to the habit, adopted from our US cousins, of performing a mash out, it has been noted that beers can develop a harsh astringency. In order to prevent this, the 'sparge' liquor need to have a low pH . . . generally this also means a low alkalinity as well.

A recent experiment here in the UK, has shown that significant amounts (Up to 78%) of calcium are lost during the mash, which will have effects later on in the boiling and fermenting process. So there is an advantage to treating mash and 'sparge' liquor differently. Use enough calcium in the mash liquor to get the pH where you want it, in the 'sparge' liquor aim for a minimum of 75-100mg/l, and I personally do not add this to the 'sparge' liquor, but add it directly to the boiler before running off the sweet wort. One set of results of that experiment showed that it is possible for calcium to be trapped during the sparge as well.

Now how about Batch sparging? Well personally I would go for treating the mash liquor with calcium to get the mash pH I wanted, use low alkalinity liquor for the top up and add 75-100mg/l calcium direct to the boiler for the volume of top up water added.

For Full Volume BIAB?? I go for treating all the liquor with calcium, but drop the alkalinity much lower than I used to for 3V brewing.
[url=http://forum.craft%20brewing.org.uk]The statement You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink has a direct corollary in Humans . . . . . . .

"You can give someone all the information . . . . but you can't make them think!!" [/url]

The Effinbrewery Web Site

serum
Piss Artist
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:07 am
Location: London, United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Confused...bl**dy water treatment!

Post by serum » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:26 pm

I've been doing it broadly as aleman does for most brews with good results. I add acid and gypsum / calcium chloride in the mash and then again in the boil.

I did it slightly differently in my last brew by adding it to the sparge liquor so time will tell whether that's better or worse.

User avatar
LeeH
Under the Table
Posts: 1112
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:42 pm
Location: Lincs
Contact:

Re: Confused...bl**dy water treatment!

Post by LeeH » Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:42 am

The water report from Murphys makes it simple. It tells you what and how much of it to add.

It made instant improvement on my AG.

There is another company too, the name escapes me.

User avatar
Dennis King
Telling everyone Your My Best Mate
Posts: 4132
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:52 pm
Location: Pitsea Essex

Re: Confused...bl**dy water treatment!

Post by Dennis King » Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:54 am

LeeH wrote:There is another company too, the name escapes me.
Phoenix Analytical, goes under the name of wallybrew on forums. Highly recommend his service. I'm going back for another test soon.

User avatar
Aleman
It's definitely Lock In Time
Posts: 6156
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:56 am
Location: Mashing In Blackpool, Lancashire, UK
Contact:

Re: Confused...bl**dy water treatment!

Post by Aleman » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:54 pm

LeeH wrote:The water report from Murphys makes it simple. It tells you what and how much of it to add.

It made instant improvement on my AG.
The additions recommended by Murphy's are pretty generic, and based about the products they sell, which may not be the absolute 'best', sort of a one size fits nothing at all approach. I am also aware of errors in the Murphy Water reports both in the 'distant' past and unfortunately more recently.

Taking the time to understand why you are adding the various chemicals and what they give you will enable you to tailor a water treatment that suits your water and the beers you want to drink.
[url=http://forum.craft%20brewing.org.uk]The statement You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink has a direct corollary in Humans . . . . . . .

"You can give someone all the information . . . . but you can't make them think!!" [/url]

The Effinbrewery Web Site

Troutman47
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:28 pm
Location: North Tawton

Re: Confused...bl**dy water treatment!

Post by Troutman47 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:47 am

Thanks for the replies guys!

Aleman, you make laugh! :lol:
Aleman wrote:OK, It's really very simple.
Aleman wrote:
If you've got the alkalinity of the liquor right the mash pH will falls somewhere between 5.3 and 5.8. If you add calcium salts to the mash liquor this will encourage the mash pH to fall lower if you need it to.
Completely got that!
But! Now you're using the words 'calcium salts'!
Is that Calcium Sulphate AND Calcium Chloride flakes?
Or just Calcium Sulphate?
Aleman wrote:
Now, onto 'sparge' liquor. Due to the habit, adopted from our US cousins, of performing a mash out, it has been noted that beers can develop a harsh astringency. In order to prevent this, the 'sparge' liquor need to have a low pH . . . generally this also means a low alkalinity as well.
Ok, my alkalinity is 10 and my pH is 7.48
Aleman wrote: A recent experiment here in the UK, has shown that significant amounts (Up to 78%) of calcium are lost during the mash, which will have effects later on in the boiling and fermenting process. So there is an advantage to treating mash and 'sparge' liquor differently. Use enough calcium in the mash liquor to get the pH where you want it, in the 'sparge' liquor aim for a minimum of 75-100mg/l, and I personally do not add this to the 'sparge' liquor, but add it directly to the boiler before running off the sweet wort. One set of results of that experiment showed that it is possible for calcium to be trapped during the sparge as well.
So this is for the top up and sparge liquor?

The calcium figures - is that to be achieved just using Calcium Sulphate?

If I put the total top up and sparge liquor quantity into the water calc on here and choose a porter profile I get 78.76mg/l of Calcium Sulphate. Is this what you're on about?

Is there a course on water treatment for 3 year olds? I could go on that!! :lol:

:? :? :? :? #-o #-o #-o :| :| :| :| :bonk :bonk :bonk :bonk :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

User avatar
BenB
Drunk as a Skunk
Posts: 901
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:02 pm
Location: North West London (NW11)

Re: Confused...bl**dy water treatment!

Post by BenB » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:09 am

Calcium (regardless of whether it's sulphate, chloride or whatever) lowers pH. So initially (when you're just thinking about pH) ignore sulphate or chloride.

However... the different calcium salts have different impacts on flavour. Sulphates bring out hop character whereas chloride brings out malty character. We therefore aim for a certain ratio between these two salts depending on whether we're brewing a hoppy beer (e.g. IPA) or a malty brew (like a brown ale).

IE first of all get the mash pH right by thinking about calcium levels +/- acids. Then think about your chloride / sulphate ratio afterwards to decide what calcium salts you want to add.

It's confusing to begin with but once you've got your head around it, it's easy.
Recent brews...

1 ) Greg Hughes Summer Ale (AG)
2 ) Oktoberfest (AG) - gone
3 ) Southern English Brown Ale (AG)- gone
4 ) Old Ale (AG)- conditioning in bottles. 7.5%- nicknamed "short session ale" - drinking
5 ) Barley Wine (AG)- drinking
6 ) Belgian Dubbel (AG) - not pleasant hoping it'll improve
7 ) South African Castle Lager Clone (AG) - mostly gone
8 ) ESB Clone (AG) - drinking
coming soon
9) Boltmaker Clone (AG)
10) some kits (running out of beer)
11) AG Porter (BCS)
12) AG Munich Helles (BCS)

Post Reply

Return to “Brewing Liquor”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest