Dublin Dry Stout Profile

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
Post Reply
Montana Dan

Dublin Dry Stout Profile

Post by Montana Dan » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:53 pm

Hi Folks, hope all's good!? I'm looking to use Salts for the first time. I would like to brew a Foreign Extra Stout.

My Local Water Profile is:
Calcium = 11mg/l
Magnesium = .{point}64mg/l
Sodium = 3.85mg/l
Chloride = 6.47mg/l
Sulfate = 2mg/l
Alkalinity As Alkalinity = 27ppm as CaCO3
pH = 7.5

I am looking to use a Dublin Dry Stout Profile:
Calcium = 110mg/l
Magnesium = 4mg/l
Sodium = 12mg/l
Chloride = 19mg/l
Sulfate = 53mg/l
HCO = 280mg/l

My question is… Will using Chalk in the Mash help me to achieve the desired Calcium & HCO levels without raising the Sodium, Chloride & Sulfate levels too much as using Sodium Bicarbonate & Gypsum seems to.

Also, as I understand it, Chalk is only effective if added directly to the Mash, so it wouldn’t effect the Sparge Water pH if desired. Is this correct?

Cheers in advance! Dan.

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Dublin Dry Stout Profile

Post by orlando » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:52 pm

There are a number of threads about the issue of raising alkalinity, more of a problem than reducing it. Start with this thread. You could also use the search function, top right on the green bit.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

Montana Dan

Re: Dublin Dry Stout Profile

Post by Montana Dan » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:50 pm

Cheers Orlando. I have read a lot of forum threads and published information on brewing websites. I haven't been able to find any definitive advice for this particular issue as yet. Any thoughts or advice on achieving the above?

User avatar
Eric
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2873
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
Location: Sunderland.

Re: Dublin Dry Stout Profile

Post by Eric » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:04 pm

Montana Dan wrote:Cheers Orlando. I have read a lot of forum threads and published information on brewing websites. I haven't been able to find any definitive advice for this particular issue as yet. Any thoughts or advice on achieving the above?
If you pressurise with CO2 a vessel containing your water and some calcium carbonate, in a few days of regular occasional shaking, the chalk will go into solution as calcium bicabonate. By this method it should be possible to achieve alkalinity up to 500mg/l HCO3 which after racking off the sedimented chalk could be blended with your untreated water to obtain the desired level of alkalinity to be confirmed by testing.

Additions of 35mg of Epsom Salts per litre, 68mg/l of gypsum and 26mg/l of calcium chloride flake should, if my sums are correct, make a profile near to what you requested.

I hope you might be happy with the resultant beer, but it isn't a profile I would advise.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

killer
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 578
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:02 am
Location: Paris

Re: Dublin Dry Stout Profile

Post by killer » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:29 pm

There is another way to do it....
Some mineral waters contain a lot of bicarbonate. Badoit has 1.3 grams Bicarbonate/ L (though it's sparkling), Evian has 360 mg/L Bicarbonate. A few bottles of those diluted with your tapwater would get your alkalinity up fairly easily - at the very least for your mash.

I would echo Eric's sentiment that that profile would probably not be particularly suitable for that beer. I suspect that 280 ppm alkalinity would push up your mash pH. You might also add a bit more sulfate for a dry stout. And a small amount of chloride wouldn't do any harm. I'd be looking at Bicarbonate closer to 100 ppm, Calcium 100 ppm, sulfate around 150 ppm and 50 ppm Chloride. For me that would be a more reasonable starting point. It might be worth doing a "mini-mash" or two on a small portion of your grainbill (say 200g) to see where you fall in terms of mash pH.

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Dublin Dry Stout Profile

Post by orlando » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:57 am

killer wrote:There is another way to do it....
Some mineral waters contain a lot of bicarbonate. Badoit has 1.3 grams Bicarbonate/ L (though it's sparkling), Evian has 360 mg/L Bicarbonate. A few bottles of those diluted with your tapwater would get your alkalinity up fairly easily - at the very least for your mash.
Which is the only place you need it.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

Montana Dan

Re: Dublin Dry Stout Profile

Post by Montana Dan » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:00 am

Cheers for the input and advice.

The Water Profile for the Dublin Dry Stout came from the Brewer's Friend Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator here... http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemi ... alculator/ ...quite surprised to hear it's not suitable. I thought it would be a solid profile to use for a Foreign Extra Stout.

The closest I can get with the required Grain Bill / No Chalk / Local Water Only is...
Calcium = 110mg/l
Magnesium = 4mg/l
Sodium = 99mg/l
Chloride = 79mg/l
Sulfate = 157mg/l
HCO = 280mg/l
Mash pH = 5.70
Alkalinity ppm as CaCO3 = 233.5
Residual Alkalinity ppm as CaCO3 = 152.0
SO42-/Cl- ratio: 2.0 Little Bitter

What are folks thoughts on this?

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Dublin Dry Stout Profile

Post by orlando » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:14 am

Montana Dan wrote:Cheers for the input and advice.

The Water Profile for the Dublin Dry Stout came from the Brewer's Friend Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator here... http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemi ... alculator/ ...quite surprised to hear it's not suitable. I thought it would be a solid profile to use for a Foreign Extra Stout.

The closest I can get with the required Grain Bill / No Chalk / Local Water Only is...
Calcium = 110mg/l
Magnesium = 4mg/l
Sodium = 99mg/l
Chloride = 79mg/l
Sulfate = 157mg/l
HCO = 280mg/l
Mash pH = 5.70
Alkalinity ppm as CaCO3 = 233.5
Residual Alkalinity ppm as CaCO3 = 152.0
SO42-/Cl- ratio: 2.0 Little Bitter

What are folks thoughts on this?
If your mash pH really will be that it is too high and I would be happier with the sulphate:chloride numbers to be reversed, but then I prefer a malty Stout so feel free to ignore :) . Alkalinity about 150 would be a lot better and would help the mash pH to fall closer to 5.3-5.6, however,I don't know how your alkalinity has suddenly gone from 27 to 233.5 without chalk?. I don't know anything about residual alkalinity or what it might mean so have to wait for others to comment on that.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

Dave S
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2514
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:38 pm
Location: Wirral, Merseyside

Re: Dublin Dry Stout Profile

Post by Dave S » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:44 am

orlando wrote:
Montana Dan wrote:Cheers for the input and advice.

The Water Profile for the Dublin Dry Stout came from the Brewer's Friend Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator here... http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemi ... alculator/ ...quite surprised to hear it's not suitable. I thought it would be a solid profile to use for a Foreign Extra Stout.

The closest I can get with the required Grain Bill / No Chalk / Local Water Only is...
Calcium = 110mg/l
Magnesium = 4mg/l
Sodium = 99mg/l
Chloride = 79mg/l
Sulfate = 157mg/l
HCO = 280mg/l
Mash pH = 5.70
Alkalinity ppm as CaCO3 = 233.5
Residual Alkalinity ppm as CaCO3 = 152.0
SO42-/Cl- ratio: 2.0 Little Bitter

What are folks thoughts on this?
If your mash pH really will be that it is too high and I would be happier with the sulphate:chloride numbers to be reversed, but then I prefer a malty Stout so feel free to ignore :) . Alkalinity about 150 would be a lot better and would help the mash pH to fall closer to 5.3-5.6, however,I don't know how your alkalinity has suddenly gone from 27 to 233.5 without chalk?. I don't know anything about residual alkalinity or what it might mean so have to wait for others to comment on that.
233 is the alkalinity of the target profile. Still way too high IMO. As you say, 150 is much nearer the mark.

Also, it is known that many breweries still made alterations to their native water supplies. In other words, the water local to the brewery is not necessarily the water it brewed with.

EDIT: I've just re-read the above and it does appear that Montana Dan his changed his water to that listed.
Best wishes

Dave

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Dublin Dry Stout Profile

Post by orlando » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:43 pm

Dave S wrote:
orlando wrote:
Montana Dan wrote:Cheers for the input and advice.

The Water Profile for the Dublin Dry Stout came from the Brewer's Friend Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator here... http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemi ... alculator/ ...quite surprised to hear it's not suitable. I thought it would be a solid profile to use for a Foreign Extra Stout.

The closest I can get with the required Grain Bill / No Chalk / Local Water Only is...
Calcium = 110mg/l
Magnesium = 4mg/l
Sodium = 99mg/l
Chloride = 79mg/l
Sulfate = 157mg/l
HCO = 280mg/l
Mash pH = 5.70
Alkalinity ppm as CaCO3 = 233.5
Residual Alkalinity ppm as CaCO3 = 152.0
SO42-/Cl- ratio: 2.0 Little Bitter

What are folks thoughts on this?
If your mash pH really will be that it is too high and I would be happier with the sulphate:chloride numbers to be reversed, but then I prefer a malty Stout so feel free to ignore :) . Alkalinity about 150 would be a lot better and would help the mash pH to fall closer to 5.3-5.6, however,I don't know how your alkalinity has suddenly gone from 27 to 233.5 without chalk?. I don't know anything about residual alkalinity or what it might mean so have to wait for others to comment on that.
233 is the alkalinity of the target profile. Still way too high IMO. As you say, 150 is much nearer the mark.

Also, it is known that many breweries still made alterations to their native water supplies. In other words, the water local to the brewery is not necessarily the water it brewed with.

EDIT: I've just re-read the above and it does appear that Montana Dan his changed his water to that listed.
Well I was going by this statement, "The closest I can get with the required Grain Bill / No Chalk / Local Water Only is..." to mean he hadn't!
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

killer
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 578
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:02 am
Location: Paris

Re: Dublin Dry Stout Profile

Post by killer » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:56 pm

You can probably ignore the residual alkalinity value at this stage. Residual alkalinity (RA) is a theoretical (calculated) value that predicts the leftover alkalinity during the mash by considering the alkalinity reducing ability of Calcium and Magnesium and subtracting this from the actual alkalinity value.

It’s often used to draw a comparison to mashes carried out with pure water as a positive RA predicts a mash pH greater than one carried out with distilled water and a negative RA predicts a mash pH below that of one carried out with distilled water. Why distilled water ? Well a fair amount of data has been published showing mashes done with it and the resulting pH. I wouldn't worry about it...

But we're getting off topic ! In any case you will require extra Calcium and Bicarbonate in your mash liquor to combat the acidity from your dark grains - How much will depend on your liquor grist ratio and the quantity of acidic grain that you have. I'd really push the suggestion of trying the mash on a small scale first. 280 ppm alkalinity is way over the top. A friend recently brewed a Russian imperial stout from distilled water with an alkalinity of 168 and Calcium around 100 ppm. He still ended up around pH 5.7.

To reiterate Daves point about treating water, for many years Guinness has two sources of water (the wicklow mountains/ dublin water supply and a canal supply), and a lab...

Montana Dan

Re: Dublin Dry Stout Profile

Post by Montana Dan » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:29 pm

Dave S wrote: 233 is the alkalinity of the target profile.

…I'm not 100% sure that is the case Dave, the Dublin Dry Stout Profile is listed as:

Calcium = 110mg/l
Magnesium = 4mg/l
Sodium = 12mg/l
Chloride = 19mg/l
Sulfate = 53mg/l
HCO = 280mg/l

...does that mean that the Target Profile Alkalinity is 280mg/l? Is Alkalinity shown as the HCO figure?



Dave S wrote: Also, it is known that many breweries still made alterations to their native water supplies. In other words, the water local to the brewery is not necessarily the water it brewed with.

...Understood, cheers.



orlando wrote: however,I don't know how your alkalinity has suddenly gone from 27 to 233.5 without chalk?

...233.5 is the figure listed in the Overall Water Report. Quoted from the webpage:

Overall Water Report

This is the final and most important water report. It considers all water treatments done to both mash and sparge water. It effectively mixes the mash and sparge water and displays the result. This water report should be used to judge the effective ion concentration of the major water ions. It also checks if these ions are at acceptable or even harmful levels.

In addition to reporting the ions it also reports the SO42-/Cl- ratio, an indication of the beer's perceived bitterness as published by John Palmer 2. Only at a combined Cl- + SO42- level greater than 100 ppm should this ratio be seen as meaningful.

Total lactic acid as equivalent acidulated malt tallies up all lactic acid that has been used in mash and sparge and reports is as an equivalent of acidulated malt in the grist. It is recommend that brewers keep this level under 5% to avoid a flavour impact from the excessive lactate present in the final beer."

...I achieved 233.5 with adding the following to 18L:
Gysum = 5g
Calcium Chloride = 2.3g
Magnesium Chloride = 0.6g
Sodium Bicarbonate = 6.3g



orlando wrote: If your mash pH really will be that it is too high and I would be happier with the sulphate:chloride numbers to be reversed, but then I prefer a malty Stout so feel free to ignore . Alkalinity about 150 would be a lot better and would help the mash pH to fall closer to 5.3-5.6

...Understood, cheers.



orlando wrote: Well I was going by this statement, "The closest I can get with the required Grain Bill / No Chalk / Local Water Only is..." to mean he hadn't!

...to clarify, I meant using Treated Local Water Only and no other Water {Evian…}.



killer wrote: I'd really push the suggestion of trying the mash on a small scale first. 280 ppm alkalinity is way over the top. A friend recently brewed a Russian imperial stout from distilled water with an alkalinity of 168 and Calcium around 100 ppm. He still ended up around pH 5.7.

…Agreed. I’m only looking at brewing a 10L batch. Cheers.



killer wrote: To reiterate Daves point about treating water, for many years Guinness has two sources of water (the wicklow mountains/ dublin water supply and a canal supply), and a lab...

...Understood, cheers.



Any experienced knowledge on the effectiveness of using Chalk {Calcium Carbonate} or Slaked Lime {Calcium Hydroxide} in the Mash? Without having to treat it with CO2 first!?

Dave S
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2514
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:38 pm
Location: Wirral, Merseyside

Re: Dublin Dry Stout Profile

Post by Dave S » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:36 pm

Montana Dan wrote:Dave S wrote: 233 is the alkalinity of the target profile.

…I'm not 100% sure that is the case Dave, the Dublin Dry Stout Profile is listed as:

Calcium = 110mg/l
Magnesium = 4mg/l
Sodium = 12mg/l
Chloride = 19mg/l
Sulfate = 53mg/l
HCO = 280mg/l

...does that mean that the Target Profile Alkalinity is 280mg/l? Is Alkalinity shown as the HCO figure?



Dave S wrote: Also, it is known that many breweries still made alterations to their native water supplies. In other words, the water local to the brewery is not necessarily the water it brewed with.

...Understood, cheers.


Alkalinity expressed as CaCO3 is HCO3 divided by 1.22. So 280 as HCO3 = 280/1.22 = 230 - near enough to 233.
Best wishes

Dave

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Dublin Dry Stout Profile

Post by orlando » Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:20 am

Dave S wrote:
Montana Dan wrote:Dave S wrote: 233 is the alkalinity of the target profile.

…I'm not 100% sure that is the case Dave, the Dublin Dry Stout Profile is listed as:

Calcium = 110mg/l
Magnesium = 4mg/l
Sodium = 12mg/l
Chloride = 19mg/l
Sulfate = 53mg/l
HCO = 280mg/l

...does that mean that the Target Profile Alkalinity is 280mg/l? Is Alkalinity shown as the HCO figure?



Dave S wrote: Also, it is known that many breweries still made alterations to their native water supplies. In other words, the water local to the brewery is not necessarily the water it brewed with.

...Understood, cheers.


Alkalinity expressed as CaCO3 is HCO3 divided by 1.22. So 280 as HCO3 = 280/1.22 = 230 - near enough to 233.
Too high for me but if you don't treat the sparge water for alkalinity that at least is right.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

Dave S
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2514
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:38 pm
Location: Wirral, Merseyside

Re: Dublin Dry Stout Profile

Post by Dave S » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:59 pm

orlando wrote:
Dave S wrote:
Montana Dan wrote:Dave S wrote: 233 is the alkalinity of the target profile.

…I'm not 100% sure that is the case Dave, the Dublin Dry Stout Profile is listed as:

Calcium = 110mg/l
Magnesium = 4mg/l
Sodium = 12mg/l
Chloride = 19mg/l
Sulfate = 53mg/l
HCO = 280mg/l

...does that mean that the Target Profile Alkalinity is 280mg/l? Is Alkalinity shown as the HCO figure?


Dave S wrote: Also, it is known that many breweries still made alterations to their native water supplies. In other words, the water local to the brewery is not necessarily the water it brewed with.

...Understood, cheers.


Alkalinity expressed as CaCO3 is HCO3 divided by 1.22. So 280 as HCO3 = 280/1.22 = 230 - near enough to 233.
Too high for me but if you don't treat the sparge water for alkalinity that at least is right.
Oh yeah, it's much too high for me too. My tap water is usually, (always) around 195 and for a stout I will bring it down to around 150
Best wishes

Dave

Post Reply