Water Profile For Brewing In My Area

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
shepp
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Re: Water Profile For Brewing In My Area

Post by shepp » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:08 pm

Eric wrote:That should produce a decent beer. A test using a Salifert kit would allow you to confirm alkalinity after treatment with CRS.
Nice one, thanks for your interest Eric.

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Re: Water Profile For Brewing In My Area

Post by shepp » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:54 pm

Looking at the water treatment recommended on Graham Wheelers calculator the results for bitter brewing comes out as per litre -

CRS 0.9 ml
Calcium Sulphate 102.93 mg/l
Magnesium Sulphate 101.43 mg/l
Calcium Chloride 0 mg/l. (I see some beers require this with my water)

What is DLS used for and do you substitute it for any of the above treatments ?

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Eric
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Re: Water Profile For Brewing In My Area

Post by Eric » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:57 pm

shepp wrote:Looking at the water treatment recommended on Graham Wheelers calculator the results for bitter brewing comes out as per litre -

CRS 0.9 ml
Calcium Sulphate 102.93 mg/l
Magnesium Sulphate 101.43 mg/l
Calcium Chloride 0 mg/l. (I see some beers require this with my water)

What is DLS used for and do you substitute it for any of the above treatments ?
I was initially surprised to see Graham's calculator didn't call for some calcium chloride flake, however it would have been a minimal quantity.

That water report suggests your supply has on average enough calcium to make good British style beers. However, calcium is essential to the brewing process but its presence diminishes as it is deposited at each stage and it is better to have surplus calcium at all stages to avoid having less than the minimum at any stage or when it is desirable to achieve specific levels of chloride and/or sulphate in the finished product, therefore there is no perfect level of calcium.

CRS is also known as AMS and is a mix of sulphuric and hydrochloric acid.
DLS is also known as DWB and is a mix of the following calcium salts.
Calcium Sulphate is approximately 23% calcium and 56% sulphate while cacium chloride flake is 27% calcium and 48% chloride.
Magnesium sulphate (Epsom Salts) contains roughly 10% magnesium and 39% sulphate and is essential for yeast except that it is suggested enough will be supplied by the malt and it influences flavour which might or might not have a detrimental influence.
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Re: Water Profile For Brewing In My Area

Post by shepp » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:48 pm

Thanks Eric, think I will just stick to the additions recommended by GW's chart for now, so not to complicate things.

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Re: Water Profile For Brewing In My Area

Post by AnthonyUK » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:06 pm

shepp wrote:Thanks Eric, think I will just stick to the additions recommended by GW's chart for now, so not to complicate things.
I wouldn't personally add any Epsom salts to my water which is similar to yours.
I made that mistake early on and it does not improve our type of water but leads to an over mineralised flavour even in small amounts.
For your first one I would simply just use CRS which I often do to get close to an optimum mash pH.
30-40ml is where my calculated figures usually come in at for 35l as I BIAB so treat the full volume in one go.

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Re: Water Profile For Brewing In My Area

Post by MTW » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:05 pm

AnthonyUK wrote:
shepp wrote:Thanks Eric, think I will just stick to the additions recommended by GW's chart for now, so not to complicate things.
I wouldn't personally add any Epsom salts to my water which is similar to yours.
I made that mistake early on and it does not improve our type of water but leads to an over mineralised flavour even in small amounts.
For your first one I would simply just use CRS which I often do to get close to an optimum mash pH.
30-40ml is where my calculated figures usually come in at for 35l as I BIAB so treat the full volume in one go.
Seconded. You've got enough of calcium in your water already, and the CRS will up the sulphate bias enough for what you're doing. Retest the alkalinity as you go, starting with 2/3 of the calculated amount, getting the whole lot down to 25ish ppm CACO3. So Just CRS (and a campden tablet) first time out, for my money.

I like to get all the liquor done the night before. I usually need 34-36L for a 20-23L brew, which all just squeezes in to my largest bucket.
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Re: Water Profile For Brewing In My Area

Post by Eric » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:10 pm

I've grave doubts about the existence of mineralised tastes, but that might be because I've lived mostly in places with a high mineral content water supply. It was once commonplace to start each day with a heaped spoon of Epsom Salts in a tumbler of water which, although tasting disgusting, I can't recall anyone ever claiming such things tasted mineralised until recently and on brewing forums.

There are many reasons to include magnesium in your diet, especially if you consume alcohol, with health concerns in regions with low level magnesium water supplies.

Here is information I believe to be true of measured magnesium levels that has me wondering how much magnesium salt additions can have on flavour?
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Re: Water Profile For Brewing In My Area

Post by Dave S » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:24 pm

Eric wrote:I've grave doubts about the existence of mineralised tastes, but that might be because I've lived mostly in places with a high mineral content water supply. It was once commonplace to start each day with a heaped spoon of Epsom Salts in a tumbler of water which, although tasting disgusting, I can't recall anyone ever claiming such things tasted mineralised until recently and on brewing forums.

There are many reasons to include magnesium in your diet, especially if you consume alcohol, with health concerns in regions with low level magnesium water supplies.

Here is information I believe to be true of measured magnesium levels that has me wondering how much magnesium salt additions can have on flavour?
The things you read, Eric :lol:
Best wishes

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Re: Water Profile For Brewing In My Area

Post by orlando » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:43 am

Magnificent, loved that old fashioned web site with the beautiful "linen" paper affect. =D>

More to the point my magnesium levels in my water as is is only 4.3, well under the 60-200 mentioned in the reference to British beers. So now I'm intrigued as to what it brings to the party and whether I should look to up it, which if it is a good idea leads me to ask how? All I remember reading is you get it from malt but I don't know how much. US brewers of course get panicy about "over mineralisation", whatever that means, so suspect the 60-200 level will cause an outbreak of the heebie jeebies so you won't get much sense from that quarter, but where lies the truth?
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Re: Water Profile For Brewing In My Area

Post by AnthonyUK » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:45 am

Eric wrote:There are many reasons to include magnesium in your diet, especially if you consume alcohol, with health concerns in regions with low level magnesium water supplies.

Here is information I believe to be true of measured magnesium levels that has me wondering how much magnesium salt additions can have on flavour?
All I can say Eric it that after skipping the recommended Epsom Salt addition for a specific water profile it completely removed the unpleasant 'harshness' for want of a better word.
I still add a teaspoon of gypsum so it isn't that and nothing else has really changed regarding water treatment for me including the local water supply.

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Re: Water Profile For Brewing In My Area

Post by shepp » Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:44 pm

AnthonyUK wrote:
shepp wrote:Thanks Eric, think I will just stick to the additions recommended by GW's chart for now, so not to complicate things.
I wouldn't personally add any Epsom salts to my water which is similar to yours.
I made that mistake early on and it does not improve our type of water but leads to an over mineralised flavour even in small amounts.
For your first one I would simply just use CRS which I often do to get close to an optimum mash pH.
30-40ml is where my calculated figures usually come in at for 35l as I BIAB so treat the full volume in one go.
Do you do the same for all styles of beer?

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Re: Water Profile For Brewing In My Area

Post by AnthonyUK » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:55 am

Pretty much and I use BruNwater to work out the amount of acid to use for each grain bill.
The paid version of BruNwater has an option for CRS.

For the odd time I'm making a lager I have used Tesco Ashbeck for around 50% of the water as CRS being part sulphuric and hydrochloric can result in high levels of suphate and chloride which is not great in this style. The benefit with our water is this instnce is we can 'dilute' it and still have adequate calcium :)

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Re: Water Profile For Brewing In My Area

Post by Eric » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:07 am

AnthonyUK wrote:
Eric wrote:There are many reasons to include magnesium in your diet, especially if you consume alcohol, with health concerns in regions with low level magnesium water supplies.

Here is information I believe to be true of measured magnesium levels that has me wondering how much magnesium salt additions can have on flavour?
All I can say Eric it that after skipping the recommended Epsom Salt addition for a specific water profile it completely removed the unpleasant 'harshness' for want of a better word.
I still add a teaspoon of gypsum so it isn't that and nothing else has really changed regarding water treatment for me including the local water supply.
I don't add any magnesium either Anthony and mostly don't advise its inclusion, but my water has never been found to contain as little as 10ppm magnesium and mostly has more than 45ppm, equivalent to nearly half a gram of Epsom Salts per litre, well, like adding 17 grams of the stuff into your 40 litres when you brew. Even at that level it still wouldn't be the majority source of magnesium in any beer it made.

Magnesium is essential for growing barley and no malt contains it at low levels for it would not be malted. About 80% of the magnesium in malt goes into the wort being highly soluble, which is why it gets into the finished beer. Malt usually contains more calcium than magnesium, but being less soluble, less leaves the malt. Similarly less gets passed the mash and so on.

This is why I remain sceptical about mineral tastes in beer when at natural levels. Liquor treatments usual call for small amounts of magnesium in comparison with the amount supplied by the malt. Relatively little calcium finds its way into a finished beer in comparison to the amount supplied and the more added, the greater the level deposited as the process has demand for it. Adding an extra 20% won't necessarily cause an equivalent increase in the finished beer. Of course that argument is often countered by it all being the fault of those nasty chlorides and sulphates, neither of which I can readily taste in distilled water. They do influence the flavour perception of other ingredients, when those ingredients are present, but surely never the same in every style and beer?

Having many times read chloride should be kept below 100ppm and wonder what harm that extra 5ppm might do as I rarely brew ales with so little. Wonder too what might be thought should someone tell them how much chloride there is in a beer made with none in their liquor? For a donation of course.
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Re: Water Profile For Brewing In My Area

Post by shepp » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:24 am

Well my Salfert test kit arrived today so just did a test and my water is 171 mgHC03, a bit lower than the 242 shown on my water company report.

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