My water profile

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
chris2012
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Re: My water profile

Post by chris2012 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:31 pm

HTH1975 - Yeah I found it really useful.

Gotcha Jim, makes sense.

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HTH1975
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Re: My water profile

Post by HTH1975 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:23 pm

Just another thing to throw into the mix. I found that getting a Murphys water report was very useful in dipping my toe into the subject of water treatment.

I've also used a Salifert alkalinity kit and that is useful too. I try to do a test every month, plus another when I prep all the brewing liquor the night before a brew day.

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Re: My water profile

Post by chris2012 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:34 pm

Neat, I might look at getting one of them, as they're not too dear.

They also have a calcium one interestingly.

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Re: My water profile

Post by McMullan » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:49 pm

Based on the OP it seems the guy was interested enough to get his water analysed for brewing already?

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Re: My water profile

Post by MTW » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:59 pm

Jim wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:44 pm
I don't have much bother getting my salts dissolved; this is what I do.

The day before brewing, I measure out the salts and divide them between two 2 litre plastic bottles (the type that come with carbonated soft drinks in them). I fill the bottles 2/3 full with filtered water (I use a water gem filter for brewing water), then leave them handy and give them a good shaking every time I pass them. By the evening (when it's time to fill the HLT and the 'spare water bucket' - I don't think that has a standard TLA) the salts are well enough dissolved to add the contents of each bottle to the HTL and SWB respectively.

I used to use a liquidiser to help dissolve the salts, but found it isn't really necessary if you have plenty of time.
Maybe I'm being a bit cavalier with my salts, but I just mix any gypsum and calcium chloride in a small amount of the brewing liquor the night before, before stirring that into the main brewing liquor. I have done that on brewday itself, though normally the night before. Either way, I give it all another good stir before heating the strike water, and again as it heats; same with the sparge water later.

I do use the calcium chloride pearls rather than the flakes, as I heard they dissolve easier.
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Re: My water profile

Post by WallyBrew » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:37 am

HTH1975 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:54 am
1g calcium chloride gives approx 10ppm calcium and 19ppm chloride (in a 25L batch).

2.5g calcium sulphate (gypsum) gives approx 60ppm calcium and 140ppm sulphate.
You give no volume for calcium sulphate but assuming it is meant to be 25L then the figures are wrong.

For 25L the Ca would be about 23mg/L and the SO4 about 56mg/L

It would be a good idea if you edited your post to reflect the above so that anyone reading it in future is presented with the correct information before they end up at this one.

If these are your own calculations then all well and good but if you have drawn them from elsewhere on the net then it would also be helpful to let that source know.

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Re: My water profile

Post by HTH1975 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:42 am

WallyBrew wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:37 am
HTH1975 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:54 am
1g calcium chloride gives approx 10ppm calcium and 19ppm chloride (in a 25L batch).

2.5g calcium sulphate (gypsum) gives approx 60ppm calcium and 140ppm sulphate.
You give no volume for calcium sulphate but assuming it is meant to be 25L then the figures are wrong.

For 25L the Ca would be about 23mg/L and the SO4 about 56mg/L

It would be a good idea if you edited your post to reflect the above so that anyone reading it in future is presented with the correct information before they end up at this one.

If these are your own calculations then all well and good but if you have drawn them from elsewhere on the net then it would also be helpful to let that source know.
That's the ppm amounts given on the label of the gypsum I bought.

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Re: My water profile

Post by Kev888 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:56 am

Your results for those quantities don't match any gypsum I've ever used, either; my figures match WallyBrew's.

Does the pack specifically say that 2.5g in 25L arrives at those figures, or could you have adjusted incorrectly for the quantities involved?
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Re: My water profile

Post by HTH1975 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:44 am

I adjusted from the 10L doseage given on the packet for a 25L brew length.

Here is a solid source for gypsum rates from Murphys... http://www.murphyandson.co.uk/Datasheet ... SUM%5D.pdf

Looks like 9g (per HL) increases calcium by 20ppm and sulphates by 48ppm. So for a 25L batch, just divide the doseage and ppm levels accordingly.

Looks like the amounts given on my gypsum packet are way off. I use a mix of DWB and extra calcium chloride anyway.

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Re: My water profile

Post by MTW » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:09 pm

I'm wondering whether there is a discrepancy here in additions based (guesstimated) on a final brewlength (see Murphy's) and those on a simple calculation of what x amount of gypsum adds to x amount of water. I can't get the Murphy's figures to work, but I will leave that to Kev or Wallybrew!
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Re: My water profile

Post by Kev888 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:44 pm

HTH1975 wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:44 am
...Looks like 9g (per HL) increases calcium by 20ppm and sulphates by 48ppm. So for a 25L batch, just divide the doseage and ppm levels accordingly.

Looks like the amounts given on my gypsum packet are way off...
Yeah, the murphy's rate is (within a degree of approximation) what I would have expected. I've also verified this via practical experience (because I test for calcium levels). Though (in case you don't know) WallyBrew is a professional in this field and had there been any disagreement I'd have taken his word over mine or murphy's any day.

So certainly something with your pack or interpretation/calculations doesn't seem right. I wouldn't expect it to be using final brew length instead of initial liquor - different systems and recipes can use a completely different amount of liquor for the same end brew length and there is no way the manufacturer could have predicted that appropriately.

Could be something to watch out for, this: what brand is your Gypsum?
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Re: My water profile

Post by chris2012 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:01 pm

Kev888 - do you use the salfert kit for testing for testing for calcium out of interest?

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Re: My water profile

Post by Kev888 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:18 pm

chris2012 wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:01 pm
Kev888 - do you use the salfert kit for testing for testing for calcium out of interest?
Yes, thats the one, it is no good for testing wort or beer but for water/liquor it seems adequate for my purposes.

My tap water varies, so I like to check roughly what the total alkalinity and calcium levels are for each brew, and also (as is perhaps relevant here) to verify that my treatment of these had the anticipated results (i.e. that I and/or the manufacturer didn't cock up) before committing it to the grain.

Though they're only two measures so I would not suggest that they replaced a proper water analysis, such as WallyBrew offers for instance.
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Re: My water profile

Post by chris2012 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:36 pm

Gotcha yeah, I was kind of wondering as according to United Utilities, my water can supposedly be from two sources, although I _think_ both sources sound to be soft, so maybe it's not too big of a deal for me.

I'm very happy with the report I got from WallyBrew :) I'll be ordering some salts soon from the maltmiller. If I have time & cash sometime, I might try an extract brew, using untreated and treated water, just to see the taste difference.

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Re: My water profile

Post by Kev888 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:27 pm

If you test the water regularly (perhaps even in addition to brew day tests) you can build up a picture of any variation. If there is variation but some consistency in how it varies, then it may be that you could use the home tests to select representative samples for additional analysis by WB - e.g. if there are two states or two extremes from the two sources.

How much difference you would see in treating for an extract brew I'm uncertain, I wasn't into such things back in my own extract days. A great deal of water treatment is aimed at the mash and sparge in AG, and I believe that to be where most benefit usually arises. Though there is also profit in having decent pH and calcium levels in the boil, and subsequent effects on hop and malt balance, so I guess there could still be a noticeable difference if things were sub-optimal before.
Last edited by Kev888 on Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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