Water profile for Shepherd Neame

[Eric]

Eric
This raises a good question.

Would you still adjust alkalinity, with say AMS, if you are just making up a kit? Not mashing.

I would think there would be merit in using AMS to eliminate most of any alkalinity in hard water. I didn't when using extract, but such thinking was beyond my capabilities in those dark days. The OP was using distilled water which should have no alkalinity, or an insignificant quantity, hence no reason for adjustment and in particular adding sodium bicarbonate.

I'll be using extract to supplement a Brown Stout brew and hope to measure pH of that extract diluted to 1040 with both DI and my own hard water to see what difference there might be.

[MashBag]

Thank you. I get that.

[NeilE1970]

Many thanks fellas

[Eric]

This would not have happened but for a tin of Coopers Dark Malt Extract bought for some forgotten project was to be used in a Fullers Brown Stout recipe of 1897 by Ron Pattinson. His recipe didn't include extract, but extract made a 1075 OG brew easier (with a couple more points) reducing both grains and sugars.

Initially I was surprised by my findings, so much so, I set about to recalibrated my pH meter using new buffers, but there was to be insignificant difference.

The RO water registered 1 on my TDS meter, my tap water gave a reading of 578. From this the RO water could be assumed to have near zero alkalinity while my spreadsheet suggested the tap water had alkalinity of 279.2ppm as CaCO3.

Previously I had used a figure of 125g for liquid malt extract in a litre of water to provide a 1040 wort, and this figure was used. When measured by refractometer, the reading was slightly less at 9.3 Brix.

pH of wort made with tap water measured 5.50, that with RO water was 4.64.

As said, I was initially shocked by this finding and wondered what adverse influence it might have had on my Brown Stout as this wasn't an assumption I had made. It would seem, and I can only think this is the case, that the manufacturer made no pH adjustment to this extract as the findings are more or less what I would expect if Brown Malt was mashed in RO water and my tap water. This suggests brewers using extract may have to treat their water as would an all grain brewer for that style of beer the extract will make. I didn't expect that, but then I've never thought about this before now.

[Trefoyl]

Don’t forget malt extract can be considered boiled wort. And I remember you telling me to be careful of adding alkalinity that won’t be reduced with boiling and carrying over to the fermenter.

[Eric]

Don’t forget malt extract can be considered boiled wort. And I remember you telling me to be careful of adding alkalinity that won’t be reduced with boiling and carrying over to the fermenter.

Yes, well maybe not precisely, but evaporated at low pressure at a temperature lower than that needed at atmospheric pressure.

This was the first time I'd knowingly used dark extract made for the purpose of brewing. In early brewing days I bought malt extract from a local wholesale chemist. That came in tin coated drums that were probably a gallon or more in capacity before a homebrew market was established locally. It would be extracted from malted barley, but how was it dried and was it kilned? In those days pH was something we'd touched on at school and wasn't written in our Chemistry text book the way it is today, not that I had any idea it might be relevant.

The warning about alkalinity not being reduced in a boil refers to sodium bicarbonate used to provide alkalinity in place of the natural carbonates of calcium and magnesium, which will largely deposit when boiled, but sodium carbonate is soluble while calcium carbonate is mostly not. What I'm finding here is a need for alkalinity when using the dark malt extract I have and presuming it applies to other dark malt extracts.

[Trefoyl]

IMG_0097.jpeg (141.45 KiB) Viewed 360 times

I’ve heard of and seen old cans of Blue Ribbon malt extract used during and after prohibition. In Laurel and Hardy, Pardon Us, they buy ingredients from a homebrew store which surprised me. I guess in some states home production and consumption was tolerated. Stan tries to sell a bottle to a policeman which lands them in jail.

[NeilE1970]

Interesting info Eric, I hope the brown stout turned out ok.

[Eric]

Interesting info Eric, I hope the brown stout turned out ok.

Yes, had I known what I have since learned, that brew would have been done differently. However, that extract perhaps wasn't a normal run of the mill extract, with colour quoted as 1650 EBC. That compared to 60 EBC used by Graham Wheeler for liquid Dark Malt Extract is so different, to make me wonder if the figure for Coopers extract might be right, causing me to look further, and at the Munton's site for extra data.

It would appear Munton's produce darker extracts for commercial breweries to adjust beer colour. The details there did confirm my findings for pH. I could not find a website for Thomas Coopers.

This beer was racked last Sunday to provide 9 litres of 7.7% ABV Brown Stout and 23 litres of Porter at 6% ABV. A quick taste of both shortly afterwards suggested they were OK, but now believe the Dark Extract was less fermentable than had been anticipated. The initial gravity was 1078 and fermentation stopped at 1020, despite there being an equivalent proportion of sugars to that of the extract.