An incredibly boring beer

Get advice on making beer from raw ingredients (malt, hops, water and yeast)
TheSumOfAllBeers
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 11:21 am

Re: An incredibly boring beer

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:14 pm

Watch the carbonation in English styles.

guypettigrew
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2626
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:10 pm
Location: Christchurch, Dorset

Re: An incredibly boring beer

Post by guypettigrew » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:59 pm

TheSumOfAllBeers wrote:Watch the carbonation in English styles.
When I said perfectly carbonated I meant a slight sparkle on the tongue. Exactly as you'd expect from a properly kept real ale in a good pub.

Guy

AdrianTrace
Piss Artist
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:42 am
Location: Botley, Hampshire

Re: An incredibly boring beer

Post by AdrianTrace » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:22 pm

Give it a couple more weeks - you never know [-o<
Ready to go: Malt extract, grain, yeast and a freezer full of hops.
Fermenting: Nowt.
Conditioning: Nelson's Revenge.
Drinking: Stop Wining, Firsty Gold, DarkMun, Yankee, Porter, ApAht, Cider, Mead, Tripel, Elderflower beer, Gluten Free, beer, wine, port, gin,beer, wine, port, gin...

Capped
Under the Table
Posts: 1928
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:08 am
Location: Barnsley,SouthYorkshire

Re: An incredibly boring beer

Post by Capped » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:27 pm

IPA wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:39 am


The present hop craze is very similar to the "who can eat the most/hottest chillies"fad from a few years ago.
I'm still into that and the obsession is becoming dangerous... now getting accustomed to Carolina Reapers and the terrible effect they have on the human body. Won't be long before they're not enough. Still don't get the hop thing, though.

User avatar
Normski
Under the Table
Posts: 1130
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:55 pm
Location: Annfield Plain

Re: An incredibly boring beer

Post by Normski » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:42 am

IPA wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:24 am
Jim wrote:Eric, I bet you know this - before kegs came on the scene was late hopping common*, or is it more a 'real ale revival' phenomenon.

* I know dry hopping of fine ales was done, but I'm talking about 15 minute and flame out hops.
I'm a bit older than Eric and cannot remember BK (before keg) They certainly became available shortly after the then Chancellor removed the necessity to have a license to brew at home.
What does amaze me is that homebrewing seems to have gone full circle. We started out brewing real ale and now with stainless kegs readily available certain brewers are doing force carbonating etc in what seems like a headlong rush to re-create Watney's Red Barrel. Also the the present craze for over hopped cloudy beer is because many brewers cannot produce bright naturally conditioned beer that reflect all of the the ingredients in the mash not just the hops and that includes most of the new wave "Craft Brewers".
=D>
The Doghouse Brewery (UK)

User avatar
Eric
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2873
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
Location: Sunderland.

Re: An incredibly boring beer

Post by Eric » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:53 pm

Normski wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:42 am
IPA wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:24 am
Jim wrote:Eric, I bet you know this - before kegs came on the scene was late hopping common*, or is it more a 'real ale revival' phenomenon.

* I know dry hopping of fine ales was done, but I'm talking about 15 minute and flame out hops.
I'm a bit older than Eric and cannot remember BK (before keg) They certainly became available shortly after the then Chancellor removed the necessity to have a license to brew at home.
What does amaze me is that homebrewing seems to have gone full circle. We started out brewing real ale and now with stainless kegs readily available certain brewers are doing force carbonating etc in what seems like a headlong rush to re-create Watney's Red Barrel. Also the the present craze for over hopped cloudy beer is because many brewers cannot produce bright naturally conditioned beer that reflect all of the the ingredients in the mash not just the hops and that includes most of the new wave "Craft Brewers".
=D>
Yes Norm, a very astute observation. I openly confess my first brewing attempts were to make something akin to beer and it was a long way from it, but when keg took over I was in the earlier stages of married life and don't really notice it happening until it had, in the North East of England anyway, replaced beer as I'd known it. That was my cue to take brewing more seriously as apart from in the occasional pub out of town, it was necessary to go to the Southern Lake District for a decent pint such as Hartley's XB. All grain and Dave Line's Guinness recipe got me off to a flying start, but it was a long time before overcoming the main problems of brewing pale beers with heavily alkaline water.

With more choice of real beers than there ever was, it's impossible to say what I might have chosen to do in a later period. I can't see myself going to the complexity of forced carbonation, I was put off that almost 50 years ago and can't see the need when the natural process is for free apart from the cost of a bung and commercial barrels for Real Ale are now made in plastic.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

User avatar
Sadfield
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 707
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:16 pm

Re: An incredibly boring beer

Post by Sadfield » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:25 pm


IPA wrote:Also the the present craze for over hopped cloudy beer is because many brewers cannot produce bright naturally conditioned beer that reflect all of the the ingredients in the mash not just the hops and that includes most of the new wave "Craft Brewers".
The usual ill-informed rubbish. You just don't understand the style and processes involved. Many traditional brewers cannot brew bright beer either, and rely on animal based fining agents. There are good brewers and bad brewers regardless of style or heritage. I find it a rather immature
point of view to disregard any ability of "craft brewers" purely because they produce something not to your taste.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


User avatar
Eric
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2873
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
Location: Sunderland.

Re: An incredibly boring beer

Post by Eric » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:47 pm

I'm not sure I call a brewer, "traditional", if he couldn't brew bright beer. I'd more likely think of him as someone who would hopefully learn the art of traditional brewing.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

User avatar
Sadfield
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 707
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:16 pm

Re: An incredibly boring beer

Post by Sadfield » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:06 pm

Out of curiosity, do you consider adding gelatin or isinglass in order to achieve a bright beer as the art of traditional brewing?



Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


User avatar
Eric
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2873
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
Location: Sunderland.

Re: An incredibly boring beer

Post by Eric » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:41 pm

Sadfield wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:06 pm
Out of curiosity, do you consider adding gelatin or isinglass in order to achieve a bright beer as the art of traditional brewing?



Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk
Not really thought about it in perhaps the way you ask the question. Isinglass is a wonderful substance. Only once bought some, about nineteen eighty something when seeing it in Boots. Used it in one brew and it was out of date by the time another was brewed. It did its job but wasn't practical for me as my beers don't move around much and am happy sampling my beers with a little yeast for the short while they take to condition. Of course for the brewer and the publican who move beer a lot while wanting it to settle in a day it provides a fabulous answer. As there was a paper read to the Institue of Brewing in 1905 titled The Natural History of Isinglass, it surely must be an accepted tradition by now.

I've never used gelatine in beer, only in jellies were it does a fine job, but I believe the name gelatine is frequently used as the catagory of some 70% of isinglass. Whether they are chemically identical or not, I don't know.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

User avatar
Sadfield
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 707
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:16 pm

Re: An incredibly boring beer

Post by Sadfield » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:24 pm

The concept of beer clarity and it's relationship to quality intrigues me. The notion that an addition of animal byproducts to achieve or maintain clarity is considered traditional and skilled, yet adding more hops to the FV in order to achieve a certain flavour profile with the payoff of colloidal haze is viewed as bad brewing, is a strange one.

User avatar
Eric
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2873
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
Location: Sunderland.

Re: An incredibly boring beer

Post by Eric » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:35 pm

Sadfield wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:24 pm
The concept of beer clarity and it's relationship to quality intrigues me. The notion that an addition of animal byproducts to achieve or maintain clarity is considered traditional and skilled, yet adding more hops to the FV in order to achieve a certain flavour profile with the payoff of colloidal haze is viewed as bad brewing, is a strange one.
Made an NEIPA earlier this year, 10% of the grainbill was flaked oats, not the sort of thing many brewers would consider, but I did it. Lots of hops in the FV, both pellet and cone, more than I would normally put in the boiler, but that was the way it was to be made. A chloride forward water profile, not unusual for me or for many British Brewers, but alien to most American advice until they've recently found this new profile. It came out slightly hazy without any finings other than those in the copper, like any very heavily hopped beer will, but not like the chicken soup I've seen in most pictures. Didn't taste like chicken soup either, although more like a fruit squash than a beer in my book. What's the betting it will in time become a traditional brew rather than just fashionable?

I've a beer on at present using Polish hops samples from Faram's to 62 IBU. Only 10g of bittering hops for 90 minutes in 23 litres, then 7 equally spaced hop additions each five minutes in the last half hour of the boil, far too much as can found when drinking. It has the slightest of haze, ask Jim if you doubt my word, he was here last week and tried it. Had it been any more bitter it would likely have only served to numb the bitterness sensors on the back of your tongue. Why harm your most precious determinator of beer?

The only reason for isinglass is for the environment in which real ale finds itself, mine doesn't and yours probably doesn't either. It's a far better option for the commercial supply than killing the beer and gassing it up, we've been there before and needed CAMRA to rescue the situation. Isinglass will take yeast to the bottom of a still cask in maybe 24 hours that otherwise might take 7 days. Anything else left possibly shouldn't.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

McMullan

Re: An incredibly boring beer

Post by McMullan » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:07 pm

Sadfield wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:24 pm
The concept of beer clarity and it's relationship to quality intrigues me. The notion that an addition of animal byproducts to achieve or maintain clarity is considered traditional and skilled, yet adding more hops to the FV in order to achieve a certain flavour profile with the payoff of colloidal haze is viewed as bad brewing, is a strange one.
A lack of turbidity should be the basic aim of even the novice brewer. 'Clarity' has intrigued survivors for millennia. One of the fortuitous characteristics of good brewer's yeast and generally acceptable (sensible) recipes produces a desirable level of clarity and flavour in beer. How else would we enjoy the visual quality of colour in beer? We are hard-wired to avoid turbidity in most things we drink. That's an evolutionary stable strategy, actually. Perhaps that explains the desirable quality of 'clarity'? A minority of contemporary 'revolutionaries' won't change the hard wiring of what is expected, visually. Preaching otherwise shouts 'pompous arrogance'. Perhaps those who think beer is all about hops should start brewing hop teas, instead of trying to reinvent beer. It's like reinventing a wheel that turns out to be square. Regardless of the inventor's opinion, it's a square.

User avatar
Sadfield
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 707
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:16 pm

Re: An incredibly boring beer

Post by Sadfield » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:47 pm

McMullan wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:07 pm
We are hard-wired to avoid turbidity in most things we drink
Milk? Freshly squeezed fruit juices?
McMullan wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:07 pm
Preaching otherwise shouts 'pompous arrogance'.
Does that apply to preaching about clarity?
McMullan wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:07 pm
Perhaps those who think beer is all about hops should start brewing hop teas, instead of trying to reinvent beer.
Beer has undergone reinvention throughout its history.


Eric, I too have brewed similar, with similar results, and have drank more turbid examples that have had not suffered for it in taste or aroma. Yeast selection and how it interacts with the hops during active fermentation has a massive impact on the end result with these beers. Having also brewed crystal clear examples of classic British styles without need for anything other than kettle finings and would not say that they require any more skill. As a result I take issue with the type of comments from IPA and McMullan as their comments are based solely on personal taste and perception of how British brewers should brew. Oddly, remarks against turbidity are normally aimed at against newer breweries and largely ignore all the none turbid beers they also brew successfully. The brewers of historically turbid styles like Belgian Wit or Hefeweizen don't garner criticism either, for some odd reason. I just don't see clarity as definitive indicator of quality, as some do.
Last edited by Sadfield on Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

McMullan

Re: An incredibly boring beer

Post by McMullan » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:03 pm

Sadfield wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:47 pm
McMullan wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:07 pm
We are hard-wired to avoid turbidity in most things we drink
Milk? Freshly squeezed fruit juices?
McMullan wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:07 pm
Preaching otherwise shouts 'pompous arrogance'.
Does that apply to preaching about clarity?
McMullan wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:07 pm
Perhaps those who think beer is all about hops should start brewing hop teas, instead of trying to reinvent beer.
Beer has undergone reinvention throughout its history.
There are no evolved visual cues for milk, for the mammalian consumer, just think about it. Then you continue with opinion, ignoring why we are programmed to appreciate 'clarity'. There is no satisfying ignorant 'revolutionaries', especially the pompous type. =D>

Post Reply