How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

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Jim my

How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

Post by Jim my » Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:39 am

I would really like to brew a malty Northern brown ale but am struggling with my water profile. Can someone point me in the right direction as to the best way to go about treating my water to get the desired Sulphate chloride ratio of 0.6/0.8 please? I am using Bru'n water.
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Re: How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

Post by Eric » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:07 am

Can't easily help you if the Northern brown ale is an American one. However, it it's a Northern England one you might wish to try Graham Wheeler's Water Calculator here on JBK.
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Re: How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

Post by Dave S » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:10 am

Jim my wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:39 am
I would really like to brew a malty Northern brown ale but am struggling with my water profile. Can someone point me in the right direction as to the best way to go about treating my water to get the desired Sulphate chloride ratio of 0.6/0.8 please? I am using Bru'n water.
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For a brown ale your alkalinity is about right. In order to get the profile you're after you need to add more Calcium Chloride than Gypsum but I'd say you need to add some of that too. Aim for Calcium levels of over 100ppm then jiggle the amounts of both salts until your ratio is as you want it.

Edit: Eric makes a good point by distinguishing between American and British ales. Americans have a different view of mineral levels in water from ours. With Bru 'n Water you will get cells turning red if both your Sulphate and Chloride levels exceed 100ppm. At best this will be disconcerting and at worst, (from the British perspective) misleading.
Best wishes

Dave

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Re: How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

Post by MTW » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:59 am

Running your figures through Graham's Water Calculator on here (under the Extras) and assuming you're taking Dave's advice and not reducing the carbonate at all, it looks like 2.47g gypsum and 10.23g of calcium chloride would get your 58L to 100ppm calcium and 90ppm sulphate to 120ppm chloride. That is a 0.6:0.8 (1.2:1.6) ratio if I understand things correctly.
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Re: How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

Post by Jim my » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:30 pm

That's great, thank you all for your help. I have to admit when I was entering amounts in bru'n water the red squares were putting me off. It is an English northern brown style that I would like to make.
I will ignore the red squares in future :)

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Re: How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

Post by Dave S » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:40 pm

Jim my wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:30 pm
That's great, thank you all for your help. I have to admit when I was entering amounts in bru'n water the red squares were putting me off. It is an English northern brown style that I would like to make.
I will ignore the red squares in future :)
Good idea
Best wishes

Dave

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Re: How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

Post by Kev888 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:20 pm

Indeed. I don't normally use Bru'n water, but if 100ppm is its threshold then the cells would be a concern if they "weren't" red for most of my British styles.
Kev

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Re: How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

Post by Jim my » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:53 pm

How high a ppm can you go with sulphate and chloride before it has a negative affect on quality?

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Re: How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

Post by Eric » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:40 pm

Jim my wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:53 pm
How high a ppm can you go with sulphate and chloride before it has a negative affect on quality?
I've brewed with in excess of 400ppm of each without any adverse comment. You don't have to go that high to make a decent pint, and in some waters it can be difficult to dissolve gypsum. Murphy's provide their Diotonic 1 and 2 to solve such problems for commercial brewers. Here is the leaflet for No1 and in it are the levels of calcium. sulphate and chloride they consider as optimum which go up to 400ppm for sulphate and 300ppm for chloride.
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Re: How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

Post by Jim my » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:50 pm

Eric wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:40 pm
Jim my wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:53 pm
How high a ppm can you go with sulphate and chloride before it has a negative affect on quality?
I've brewed with in excess of 400ppm of each without any adverse comment. You don't have to go that high to make a decent pint, and in some waters it can be difficult to dissolve gypsum. Murphy's provide their Diotonic 1 and 2 to solve such problems for commercial brewers. Here is the leaflet for No1 and in it are the levels of calcium. sulphate and chloride they consider as optimum which go up to 400ppm for sulphate and 300ppm for chloride.
That's a handy reference, thanks Eric.

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Re: How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

Post by MTW » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:41 pm

Jim my wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:53 pm
How high a ppm can you go with sulphate and chloride before it has a negative affect on quality?
Pretty high, it seems. Brulosophy did a very interesting experiement this year, which seems to have disappeared from his page. Luckily google has cached it here:

As ever with those exBEERiments, as he calls them, it's only one test on one day with one recipe etc etc. Coming from the states though, where they seem averse to 'mineral bombs', the result makes interesting reading.
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Re: How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

Post by Kev888 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:08 pm

It isn't obviously any worse than other Brulosophy tests, so seems strange to have removed just this one - I wonder if the water experts over the pond have been bending his ear?

Personally I aim for the ratio of sulphate/chloride wanted and make sure the quantities are high enough that there is enough total calcium. For my water and regime this almost always results in levels approximating those suggested in Eric's link. But if it is a more extreme ratio then sometimes the levels of one or the other end up fairly high (I purposely don't start with RO water) but there doesn't seem to have been any problem with that.
Kev

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Re: How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

Post by Jim my » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:28 am

Kev888 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:08 pm
It isn't obviously any worse than other Brulosophy tests, so seems strange to have removed just this one - I wonder if the water experts over the pond have been bending his ear?

Personally I aim for the ratio of sulphate/chloride wanted and make sure the quantities are high enough that there is enough total calcium. For my water and regime this almost always results in levels approximating those suggested in Eric's link. But if it is a more extreme ratio then sometimes the levels of one or the other end up fairly high (I purposely don't start with RO water) but there doesn't seem to have been any problem with that.
Thanks Kev, I'll have a read of that. I'm pleased Sulphate/chloride levels are ok around 400ppm, it gives me more flexibility.

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Re: How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

Post by Kev888 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:50 am

Yes the headroom certainly helps, though the brulosophy link wasn't mine - their stuff is usually interesting and worth a read, but the semi-scientific way they write it shouldn't be taken to mean it is any kind of proof that will apply to other situations.

TBH I would rarely aim purposely for 400ppm, but if that is needed to get enough calcium then so be it. I am keen to get around 200ppm calcium, or at least 150ppm, and that is what usually drives higher levels of sulphate and chloride in my case. This is markedly different from some views over the pond who can suggest 1/3rd to 1/2 that amount of calcium.
Kev

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Re: How can I acheive 0.6 - 0.8 sulphate/chloride ratio please?

Post by Dave S » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:20 am

Kev888 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:50 am
Yes the headroom certainly helps, though the brulosophy link wasn't mine - their stuff is usually interesting and worth a read, but the semi-scientific way they write it shouldn't be taken to mean it is any kind of proof that will apply to other situations.

TBH I would rarely aim purposely for 400ppm, but if that is needed to get enough calcium then so be it. I am keen to get around 200ppm calcium, or at least 150ppm, and that is what usually drives higher levels of sulphate and chloride in my case. This is markedly different from some views over the pond who can suggest 1/3rd to 1/2 that amount of calcium.
Yes, as well as Sulphate/Chloride ratio it is important to get enough calcium in there, bearing in mind that at least half of it precipitates out within the first quarter of an hour or so into the Mash. With some of our tap water achieving a healthy level of Calcium will take us well over Sulphate/Chloride levels advocated in America.
Best wishes

Dave

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