S04 versus liquid or kidnapped

[Northern Brewer]

For comparison purposes only, has anybody figured out for themselves what the liquid equivalent to SO4 is? I've seen comparisons drawn with 1098 and WLP007, but I struggle with these.

Secondly. What liquid/kidnappable strains are out there, which can really shake a stick at SO4?

[mysterio]

WLP002 has pretty similar performance... drops out like a rock. I wouldnt mistake the flavour between the two, but they're not a million miles away from each other. They both have a slightly bready flavour when young, I don't know if i'm imagining that though.

[Eadweard]

It's the Whitbread B strain.

That's interesting. Do you have a referance for this?

[Northern Brewer]

Thanks for all of your comments so far. I am a little surprised that I haven't pounced-upon by fans of liquid yeasts, heralding their favourite cultures. Does this indicate that SO4 actually holds its head up with the best of them?

I have also seen plenty of references to SO4 being Whitbread B or Whitbread Dry. This is why I referred to 1098 and WLP007 above, because these are generally cross-referenced as being Whitbread Dry.

Wyeast describe 1098 as follows...
"Produces beers with a clean neutral finish allowing malt and hop character to dominate. Ferments dry & crisp, slightly tart, fruity and well balanced. Ferments well down to 65°F (18°C). Flocculation: Medium-High - Attenuation: 73-75% - Temperature Range: 64-72F, 18-22C"

White Labs describe WLP007 as follows...
"Clean, highly flocculent, and highly attenuative yeast. This yeast is similar to WLP002 in flavour profile, but is 10% more attenuative. This eliminates the residual sweetness, and makes the yeast well suited for high gravity ales. It is also reaches terminal gravity quickly. 80% attenuation will be reached even with 10% ABV beers. Flocculation: Medium to High - Attenuation: 70-80% - Optimum fermentation temperature: 65-70F, 18-21C"

Given that second description, it is interesting that Mysterio drew comparisons with WLP002, which I understand to be the Fullers yeast. White Labs say WLP002 attenuates at 63-70% and produces a very clear beer with some residual sweetness, so the suggestion seems to be that WLP007 mops up that sweetness. Fermentis don't appear to say as much, but S04 is supposed to attenuate at 73-75%, which fits within the descriptions of 1098 and WLP007.

I have used SO4 with great success for many years and probably have no reason to changes this, other than for the fact that it's the only ingredient that I've never played about with. Chris mentions the Hop Back yeast, and I currently in the process of culturing some for my next brew. Maybe this will alleviate my urge to fiddle

[Northern Brewer]

Last night I tapped the brew that I made at the start of the month, which used kidnapped Hop Back yeast. I would normally wait a little longer before tapping, but I'm brewing today and wanted to know whether to pitch the reserved Hop Back slurry or revert to SO4. A recent experience with Nottingham had left me disappointed and I've been kicking myself for experimenting with alternative yeasts. In short, I wasn't expecting much...

Despite its youth, the beer came out of the Corny clear as a bell. It had a slightly different aroma to an SO4 beer, perhaps ever so slightly fruity, and rather pleasant. The first mouthful made me go Wow! The flavour, whilst perhaps slightly more acidic was not madly dissimilar to SO4 but there was something else more 'complete' going on. I then swallowed and waited for the disappointing emptiness that I found with Nottingham. Instead I got a lovely rounded finish, but without that hint of 'back of the tongue' harshness that SO4 can produce.

I was totally hooked and found it rather difficult returning to an SO4 beer afterwards (I want to fully mature the Hop Back beer before I drink any more of it).

So. The decision has been made and today's brew will be pitched with Hop Back slurry. My main concern now is how I can continue to use this yeast. I saved two jars of slurry and I'm assuming that it should be OK to use these in two separate brews, then use some slurry from those beers to make a further set of brews before starting again and culturing a fresh Summer Lightning starter. Does this sound about right?

[Eadweard]

You should be OK for 3 or 4 'generations' of yeast use. I'd try and use any saved slurry within a week though as viability starts to decline.

[Northern Brewer]

Thanks Guys!

HB yeast is more resiliant than most yeasts and tends to keep longer. I've also used it for around 10 generations with no noticable change in performance of charachteristics.

Is it OK to re-use yeast slurry saved from the primary, which will include some trub?

Would you firstly wash it?

What sort of volume should I pitch in 23 litres of 1042?

My jars each contain about a cupful of slurry, which is currently covered by beer.

[mdex]

I'm just starting with AG and am interested in cultivating my own yeast but when taking the yeast from a primary do you just rack the beer then take a sample of the slurry and keep it in the fridge (not for too long) until you need to use it?

[Eadweard]

HB yeast is more resiliant than most yeasts and tends to keep longer. I've also used it for around 10 generations with no noticable change in performance of charachteristics.

I'd be more worried about the chance of picking up bacterial contaminants.

[Northern Brewer]

I'm just starting with AG and am interested in cultivating my own yeast but when taking the yeast from a primary do you just rack the beer then take a sample of the slurry and keep it in the fridge (not for too long) until you need to use it?

I wouldn't be rushing into yeast cultivation until you've got into your AG stride.

In my case, I boiled up a couple of jam jars with their lids to sterilise them, then I filled each to the top with some slurry after racking the beer. The lids were fitted and the jars put in the fridge. The yeast has since settled out further and each jar now contains about 2/3 yeast covered with 1/3 beer. I have occasionally loosened then re-tightened the lids to vent off the CO2 before the pressure had chance to build up and damage the yeast cells. I am about to pour off the beer from one of the jars and pitch some of the yeast into today's brew. Needless to say I am a little nervous!

[Graham]

Some yeasts have 'killer' characteristics and knacker bacteria. Some 'learned' references say that 'killer' strains only kill competing yeasts and not bacteria. Alexander Fleming, on the other hand, would beg to differ.

[Graham]

It's the Whitbread B strain.

That's interesting. Do you have a referance for this?

Not specifically the 'B' part, that's from distant memory and I was trying to find a reference earlier today before drawing a blank but if you Google Safale and Whitbread together you'll find loads. (here's one for the colour blind and short sighted http://brewersconnection.com/popup/SafaleS04.htm )

That reference was probably me, and probably mentioned in one of my books. In the 1990s, when Safale was British (it is now French), I asked a Distiller's Co rep, straight out, what the strain was and he immediately said Whitbread Strain B. That was too specific for me to doubt him - Strain B was a famous and popular strain, used by a great many breweries, but he didn't know that I new that, so it was certainly the truth. Whether it still is strain B is open to debate, but it certainly was once.

[Edit} Just looked at Chris's reference and proper strain B is certainly not bottom fermenting. Dried variants probably are because dried yeasts, due to the way they are propagated, usually lose their top-working characteristics. [/edit}

[Eadweard]

Thank you very much Graham.

[Northern Brewer]

Quantity wise, Stonechat has quoted that Muntons suggest 85g of thick balm but based on his experience of pitching slurry he's increased this to 120g (iirc). I get the impression he has quite a lot of experience of repitching slurry so i'd go with that. You want at least some yeast growth to benefit from the yeast charachter.

Thanks again Chris. I'd messed around with Mr Malty's calculator but there were enough variables to have me tearing my hair out. I ended up pitching around 100ml, because after I'd poured the beer off, that was all I had left. 12 hours after pitching, and at 17C, the beer is covered in a dense yeasty head and producing a couple of bubbles per minute, so everything seems hunky-dory.

[Eadweard]

The standard brewery rate for pitching yeast is one pound per barrel, which works out at only 64 g for a 23 l batch.