Changing syrup for glucose powder?

[Wobbler]

Never used any sugars in brewing before, but have just bought some glucose in dry form to give it a go. So if a recipe asks for 470g of maltose syrup, I'm assuming I could substitute it for glucose, but how much dry glucose approx should I use?

TIA

[Wobbler]

I didn't know if they were interchangeable or not. I was looking at an adnams recipe and thought to use glucose would be ok for making a drier tasting beer. The recipe had maltose syrup, is that the same as malt extract?. On the other hand, Dave Line's book has invert sugar, which I don't know where to get. I've read that golden syrup is liquid invert sugar? Would it be a bad idea to use glucose for an adnams style beer?

[steve_flack]

Golden syrup is partially inverted sugar. The thing is the brewers have a range of invert syrups available to them in a range of colours so they can be used for darkening a beer as well.

http://www.ragus.co.uk/brewing/page2_data.html

Invert number 3 is quite popular amongst bitter brewers and as you can see has a colour of 120-140EBC - Similar to crystal malt.

[Wobbler]

Is there a retail outlet for these invert sugars for the home brewer?

[mixbrewery]

Ragus are the manufacturers and only supply in bulk.
If you want invert it comes in 25kg plastic buckets and you have to buy in full pallets of 1 tonne which is 40 buckets.

I've yet to find someone who is willing to take the risk of a pallet and sell single 25kg buckets.

[Wobbler]

Oh well, looks like invert sugars are out then.

Back to the original question if I may. If these syrups aren't interchangeable with glucose, isn't the amount of fermentable sugars they would produce calculable in any way? I'm assuming invert sugar would lead to a drier beer, as would glucose in powdered form?

[Wobbler]

Thanks DaaB, it's good to know that.

At what stage during the boil is the best time to add sugars?

[Wobbler]

Cheers, all noted in me little brewing book.

[David Edge]

Oh well, looks like invert sugars are out then.

Invert it yourself!

http://craftbrewing.org.uk/bcpdf/BC6-1_mar2006.pdf

or use Lyle's golden syrup.

Back to the original question if I may. If these syrups aren't interchangeable with glucose, isn't the amount of fermentable sugars they would produce calculable in any way? I'm assuming invert sugar would lead to a drier beer, as would glucose in powdered form?

Not something I've ever got excited about. All sugars save lactose are going to ferment out fully. I'd use table sugar unless you're looking for the yummy flavours of the better brown sugars.

If you want dry beer sugar's not essential, conventional techniques will do the trick - see Elena's Elixir (1039 down to 1004) here: http://craftbrewing.org.uk/recipes/ under Golden Ales. If you want to try sugar, Janette's 'Mongrel' recipe contains 11% sugar yet convinced a National judge of its merits in 2005, the year the ladies wiped the floor with the men at Sutton. I've just added it to the best bitter recipes - a shufty will show that the sugar didn't affect the FG greatly and other things were perhaps responsible for the recipe's success.

[Wobbler]

Thanks David, I've never got excited about sugar either. In fact I've never used any form of sugar in my brewing, apart from to prime with. I just thought I'd give it a try. The reason I bought the glucose was because I'd read on these forums it was a better option than using sucrose.

Re the Elixir recipe, I've tried mashing at 64°C before, but haven't tried the 4L per Kg for mash water, so I'll give that a go.

Looking at Janette's Mongrel recipe, is that common practice to put the sugar in half way through the mash?

[David Edge]

Daab: while Bob Renvoize's article is well worth reading in full the essence of it is that some commercial brewers used to mash at 70C and then balance the body and taste with sugar. To make invert boil sugar with a little citric acid. I think Graham Wheeler explains how as well.

Wobbler: it wasn't as clear as it might have been - the sugar was listed as part of the grist; but it should have said 'added to boil after 45 minutes'. Somewhere in mid boil is common practice.

There are theoretical reasons for using glucose and maltose over sucrose; to eat sucrose the yeast has to make 'invertase' to convert it into something it can eat. It was once believed that this invertase contributed to the 'cidery' flavour of beerkits - but that theory has fallen out of flavour. Using sucrose at 50% in a kit must nonetheless have an effect on wort nutrients and hence fermentation quality as well as on body. But Mongrel demonstrates that 11% is ok and Belgian beers contain rather larger proportions of Candi sugar which is sucrose as well.

[Wobbler]

Wobbler: it wasn't as clear as it might have been - the sugar was listed as part of the grist; but it should have said 'added to boil after 45 minutes'. Somewhere in mid boil is common practice.

That did cross my mind that it meant 45 mins of boil. Coincidentally, the question of when to add the sugar was answered earlier in this thread, by DaaB.

If there's no noticeable difference between glucose and ordinary sugar, I'll stick to sugar, it's a fair bit cheaper. Would you say sucrose is just as good for priming as glucose?

[oblivious]

The yeast won’t tell the difference. They will express invertase to invert the sucrose

Good luck

[Jimberbob]

Maltose syrups are a mixture of glucose and maltose, I didn't think they were directly interchangeable for glucose powder ?
Glucose is completely fermentable where as maltose syrup isn't. I expect this is another one that Rab replaces for flaked maize.

Would you substitute the same weight of flaked maize for maltose syrup?
some of Dave line's recipes also call for Barley syrup, what would you substitute that with?

[oblivious]

You could substitute barely syrup with some liquid malt extract is the conversion of starch to usable sugars by the addition of expressed enzyme or chemical process.