The shared wisdom around first wort hopping suggests that the bitterness addition from FWH is perceived to be about the same as 20 minute boil hops.
I'm actually doing an American IPA at the moment with no bittering hops - just FWH and then hops at 15, 10, 5, and 1 minute. We'll see how it goes...
SMASH with no bittering addition
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Jocky
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Re: SMASH with no bittering addition
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.
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seymour
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Re: SMASH with no bittering addition
But can anyone help me understand why? The hops are in there for the full boil plus some, why wouldn't they provide at least as much bitterness as the same hops quantity would if added at the beginning of the boil?Jocky wrote:The shared wisdom around first wort hopping suggests that the bitterness addition from FWH is perceived to be about the same as 20 minute boil hops...
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Jocky
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Re: SMASH with no bittering addition
Obviously something to do with chemistry that I don't know (but would love to).
There's obviously something going on at the lower range of temperatures over time that doesn't happen on the boil (e.g. IBU could be reduced because alpha acids can bond to proteins before they precipitate out of the wort as hot break), just like why mashing is done at a very specific temperature for a length of time.
I will research and see what the theories are!
There's obviously something going on at the lower range of temperatures over time that doesn't happen on the boil (e.g. IBU could be reduced because alpha acids can bond to proteins before they precipitate out of the wort as hot break), just like why mashing is done at a very specific temperature for a length of time.
I will research and see what the theories are!
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.
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Jocky
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Re: SMASH with no bittering addition
So I think I've read everything on the internet with regards to FWH.
To summarise: nobody knows what the hell is going on, or can really agree yet on the final effect of FWH or how to calculate your FWH usage.
There's theories about it being related to the different pH and oxidation of hop compounds at the lower temperatures, but it's all finger in the air stuff. There's a lot of compounds (400+) floating around in the boiler and to isolate which ones are reacting in what way is going to take a long time. It's additionally complicated by the whole mixture being taken through a large temperature range as some reactions only happen at a very narrow temperature range (as we know from mashing). At least in the boil you know your reactions are happening at 100 degrees C.
Even the effect in the finished beer and how best to calculate FWH usage is still widely under debate. This article summarises some of the latest thinking and some of the outdated wisdom: http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/11/19/fi ... revisited/
What is true though is that home brewers and forums like this are now out on the bleeding edge of brewing innovation, and will figure this out before too long. I was looking at some comments from 10 years ago, and it's amazing how far things have come. Details on brewing practices were so... imprecise even in the professional brewing circles. These days we all pump out our precise recipes with grist %, IBUs for each addition etc, details on water chemistry, mash temperature and pH whereas previously it was more a case of adding a rough measurement of hops, with a third at the beginning of the boil etc.
To summarise: nobody knows what the hell is going on, or can really agree yet on the final effect of FWH or how to calculate your FWH usage.
There's theories about it being related to the different pH and oxidation of hop compounds at the lower temperatures, but it's all finger in the air stuff. There's a lot of compounds (400+) floating around in the boiler and to isolate which ones are reacting in what way is going to take a long time. It's additionally complicated by the whole mixture being taken through a large temperature range as some reactions only happen at a very narrow temperature range (as we know from mashing). At least in the boil you know your reactions are happening at 100 degrees C.
Even the effect in the finished beer and how best to calculate FWH usage is still widely under debate. This article summarises some of the latest thinking and some of the outdated wisdom: http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/11/19/fi ... revisited/
What is true though is that home brewers and forums like this are now out on the bleeding edge of brewing innovation, and will figure this out before too long. I was looking at some comments from 10 years ago, and it's amazing how far things have come. Details on brewing practices were so... imprecise even in the professional brewing circles. These days we all pump out our precise recipes with grist %, IBUs for each addition etc, details on water chemistry, mash temperature and pH whereas previously it was more a case of adding a rough measurement of hops, with a third at the beginning of the boil etc.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.
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Jocky
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Re: SMASH with no bittering addition
I'm going on a bit of a tour of some of London's most innovative craft brewers next week (Kernel, Partizan, Beavertown amongst others), so I'll try to see if I can get a word with the head brewers there for their view.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.
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NeedsMoreHops
Re: SMASH with no bittering addition
Ok so this has had time to mature and I thought I would report on how this turned out. It is certainly a quaffable session ale and quite moreish; I have had similar at festivals. It is basically very grapefruity and very bitter. Far more bitter than the 'bittering addition' at 45 mins would probably suggest. Although the bitterness is pleasant enough, any more and it would be bordering on astringent. When fermentation was complete it was too bitter, which only subsided on conditioning.
However, when I repeat this I will probably remove the 45 min addition, lower some of the other additions and add a complemetry floral hop. This should decrease the bitterness and grapefruit flavour and add additional interest (probably cascade).
I am possibly being hyper-critical as it is delicious. While I'm on the subject, I think it would be rude not to grab another pint, before assembling my ingredients for tomorrow...
However, when I repeat this I will probably remove the 45 min addition, lower some of the other additions and add a complemetry floral hop. This should decrease the bitterness and grapefruit flavour and add additional interest (probably cascade).
I am possibly being hyper-critical as it is delicious. While I'm on the subject, I think it would be rude not to grab another pint, before assembling my ingredients for tomorrow...