Choosing hops

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Meatymc
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Re: Choosing hops

Post by Meatymc » Thu May 16, 2019 10:26 pm

TheSumOfAllBeers wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:40 pm
I BIAB and No-Chill. Its a challenge to make hop forward beers. And its the No chill part that adds the challenges.
BIAB/No Chill is meant to be easy and it is. What it is not, is a complete alternative to orthodox processes like active chilling of the wort. By dispensing with these processes, you introduce compromises into your beer, that impact different recipes unequally. Unfortunately pale hoppy beers are the most impacted.
Whilst I wouldn't argue with anything you've said, thanks to another forum member who suggested this some months ago (sorry whoever, can't find the relevant thread) I dropped the late addition hops altogether. Apart from lack of equipment I baulk a bit a using so much water to chill hence no chill. What i can do is rapid chill a gallon of wort in the sink using ice cubes (£1 a bag) so now take a gallon out of the (cooled overnight) cube, bring it to the boil and add my late addition hops - boil for 10 minutes then rapid chill. Pour this and the other wort into the fermenter and pitch.

This simple added step (with the usual later dry hop) has made a massive difference to me being able to acheive the 'pale hoppy beers' I've been aiming for. Of course a decent dose of a T90 Citra (again courtesy of another forum member) goes a long way to making that possible :wink:

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Re: Choosing hops

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Thu May 16, 2019 11:01 pm

Mjr6313 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:45 pm
Unfortunately without running a 25ft hose through the house from kitchen to brewing area then another 10 ft to the garden without the dog's eating the rabbits its just not practical unfortunately,
One day when I escape this house for a better one a nice shiney 3 tier, IC, whirlpool, fermenting fridge and bar. Hops will just have to be a see what happens and adjust as needed till I'm happy ipa's will have to come later.
Yeah, I haven't got the IC yet either. But if you want to make hop showcases with no-chill, no hop stand, no whirlpool etc. you will need to pull out all the other tricks:
- the hop tea that was mentioned already
- good dry hop routines
- hops in the cube itself
- all late hops ( 10m - 0m).

In practice with no-chill, all your late additions will isomerise to a significant degree, so most of your hopping regimes for hoppy beers consist of adding the hops as late as possible until you hit your IBU ceiling, then maybe doing more with hop teas, as much of a dry hop as you can manage etc. But even throwing everything at it, I dont think I have ever used more than about 350gb(highish alpha ~8%) hops in a 55L batch.

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Re: Choosing hops

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Thu May 16, 2019 11:13 pm

Meatymc wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:26 pm
Whilst I wouldn't argue with anything you've said, thanks to another forum member who suggested this some months ago (sorry whoever, can't find the relevant thread) I dropped the late addition hops altogether. Apart from lack of equipment I baulk a bit a using so much water to chill hence no chill. What i can do is rapid chill a gallon of wort in the sink using ice cubes (£1 a bag) so now take a gallon out of the (cooled overnight) cube, bring it to the boil and add my late addition hops - boil for 10 minutes then rapid chill. Pour this and the other wort into the fermenter and pitch.

This simple added step (with the usual later dry hop) has made a massive difference to me being able to acheive the 'pale hoppy beers' I've been aiming for. Of course a decent dose of a T90 Citra (again courtesy of another forum member) goes a long way to making that possible :wink:
When I lived in London, I found the the use of water as coolant to be scandalous, considering how much you actually needed. Besides the fact that it was not feasible to run an IC in the flat either (for the large batches I was doing).

Thinking aloud, how many hops would you add in the 'side boil' ? You wouldnt necessarily need to fiddle with the cubes too much either for simple pale ales - you could just use some extract and boil separately (I have a lot of headroom in my FV) and you don't necessarily need to do it at pitching time either (you could add it a couple of days into fermentation).

Thanks for the tip, i might do this for future brews if I dont get my IC sorted soon.

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Mjr6313
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Re: Choosing hops

Post by Mjr6313 » Fri May 17, 2019 9:13 am

I'm going to have to look into hop teas I don't remember much about them, and the amount of water needed to run an IC seems a bit ridiculous (unless I was doing a second brew right after I could just fill another HLT or at least one for overnight water treatment but that would be a bit obsessive). partial boil then ice cooling will be a route for me later when I get my drew days down to an art rather than forgetting 5,6 things that need steralizeing looking for them just before needing them and making a mess inthe hunt.
My wife wanted me to get a hobby now I make beer. She says I'm always in my shed I KEEP TELLING HER IT WAS HER IDEA.

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Re: Choosing hops

Post by Meatymc » Fri May 17, 2019 10:57 am

TheSumOfAllBeers wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:13 pm
Thinking aloud, how many hops would you add in the 'side boil' ? You wouldnt necessarily need to fiddle with the cubes too much either for simple pale ales - you could just use some extract and boil separately (I have a lot of headroom in my FV) and you don't necessarily need to do it at pitching time either (you could add it a couple of days into fermentation).

Thanks for the tip, i might do this for future brews if I dont get my IC sorted soon.
I tried adding to the cube but was advised on here that whilst the oils couldn't escape, the long exposure converted them to something else so a waste of time. I never felt I'd acheived anything doing this so stopped.

Aiming for a Baby Faced Assassin clone, I used 70g of my home grown First Gold hops for bittering at 90 minutes and then 3g of Irish Moss at 10. The 'side boil' was 50g of Citra for 10 minutes then rapid cool using 1 sink of cold water and a £1 bag of ice cubes replenishing every few minutes. Took around 15 minutes to get down to 20C.

Done 3 versions with a 25g, 50g and then 75g dry hop addition. 25g not enough, 50g quite nice, 75g spot on. Running out of Citra so repeated the 50g version which is now ready for bottling. Going to try and do another 5 gallon tomorrow plus a 3 gallon replacing the Citra with Chinook - only 3 gallon as I'm not sure the Chinook isn't oxidised - looks off to me but not familiar with it to be able to check based on aroma. It was this Chinook which I cocked up with and over-bittered a previous brew.

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PhilB
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Re: Choosing hops

Post by PhilB » Fri May 17, 2019 10:59 am

Hi All
Meatymc wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:26 pm
... sorry whoever, can't find the relevant thread ...
... that's OK Meaty, but it was me, over there (link) :wink:
Mjr6313 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:57 pm
... wouldn't dry hopping be easier? Or is there some science I have yet to discover ...
... there's some science around, but mostly there's an overwhelming body of empirical evidence that steeping botanicals in solutions at different temperatures, for different amounts of time, extracts different flavour/aroma compounds, in different combinations and quantities, at different temperatures :? ... this doesn't just apply to (beer) brewing, think of the flavour differences in coffee when the grounds are subjected to super-heated, pressurised steam (in espresso machines), vs recently condensed steam (in a drip filter machine), vs just off boiling water (in a cafetiere), vs ambient temperature/cold water (for cold brew) :? ... and then, another body of empirical evidence (from brewers of extremely hoppy "craft" beers) is showing that if you want very hoppy beer, then you'll probably have to combine most (if not ALL) of the techniques of steeping hops in wort at wort-boiling temperature (i.e adding hops late in the boil), steeping hops in the wort after the boil (possibly with further additions, at different temperatures, as you cool) and steeping hops at cooler/fermentation temperatures (i.e. dry-hopping, and even multiple dry-hop additions at different stages, for different durations, at different stages) :? ... the evidence is stacking up, if you want to make hoppy beer, you don't just need to use more hops but you're going to need to use them in "more complicated" ways :?
Mjr6313 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:57 pm
... biab, no chill was supposed to be the easy no fuss all grain adding a step to boil and cool just seems counter intuitive ...
... and BIAB and no chill is less fuss, on brewday ... but making beers that are inherently more complicated to brew, will always involve a more complicated brewing experience ... but at least by no-chilling, you get to choose whether you take on those complications on brewday (with variable/less good results) or on "transfer to FV"-day :?

Cheers, PhilB

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Re: Choosing hops

Post by Meatymc » Fri May 17, 2019 2:34 pm

PhilB wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:59 am
Hi All
Meatymc wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:26 pm
... sorry whoever, can't find the relevant thread ...
... that's OK Meaty, but it was me, over there (link) :wink:
Hi Phil

Sorry about that - posted just before setting off out this morning. You deserve the credit mate!!

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Re: Choosing hops

Post by PhilB » Fri May 17, 2019 5:05 pm

Hi Meatymc
To be clear, I wasn't after credit (I first heard about the technique on an Aussie forum, so if anyone deserves credit it's someone down-under) ... I just wanted to "throw my hat into the ring" as someone who's also taken this approach, and link to what I do (which you've adapted slightly, which is fair enough :wink: )

Hi Mjr6313
Mjr6313 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 9:13 am
... when I get my drew days down to an art rather than forgetting 5,6 things that need steralizeing looking for them just before needing them and making a mess inthe hunt ...
... one of the advantages I see from no-chilling is separating "hot side" and "cold side" processes, to be done on different days, so a brewday is a simplified brewday, and a "transfer to FV"-day is like a kit brewday (sterilise EVERYTHING, open can/cube, transfer to FV (and add other ingredients/dilute if doing a kit), take gravity reading, pitch yeast, into brewfridge, done!) ... I'll admit that a boil of part of the wort then re-introduces some "hot-side" stuff on your "transfer to FV"-day, but it keeps brewday as all about "hot side" ... and the great thing about "hot side" stuff is that everything that touches the hot wort is sterilised by the heat, so no need for steriliser on brewday :wink: ... so what are these 5/6 things you're sterilising :?

I'll admit I do put steriliser in my cube ... but I do that immediately after transferring the cooled wort from the last brew and washing it, and I store it with steriliser (weak bleach solution) in till I next need it ... then (during the weeks before my next brew (using the no-chill)) each time I remember to, I'll tip the cube up and down and get the steriliser in it touching all surfaces ... then on a brewday, just before end of boil, I'll empty out the steriliser and rinse the cube, then at end of boil I'll immediately open up the tap and transfer the still boiling hot wort into the cube, squeeze out any excess air and seal up the cube ... then I leave it upside down (letting the still very hot wort touch (and sterilise) the top off the cube too) while I start cleaning up ... there are those that will argue that since the wort is going into the cube still hotter than pasteurisation temps, that all of the steriliser I do use is "wasted", but I'd just rather not come to my no-chill cube on a brewday and find it's developed some growth/smell in it :?

Cheers, PhilB

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Re: Choosing hops

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Sat May 18, 2019 9:10 am

I have had a cube get infected through a perfect storm of sloppy sanitation and ineffective hot wort pasteurisation.

I got very very lucky - came home early on a day I was planning to stay out a while and found a swollen cube. Having that blow up in the living room would not make for a good year.

Storing cubes with bleach/iodophor etc is not overkill - it’s easy and makes brewday practices a lot easier

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Re: Choosing hops

Post by Mjr6313 » Sat May 18, 2019 1:49 pm

I sterilize everything before use even hot side it maybe over kill but I don't want to do a brew day and for nothing.
Also I feel this topic has veered down a road unintended by the wording of my original post,
What I wanted to know was how do people decide what hops they brew with e.g. I like the sound of flavours from admiral in the Greg hughs book but some retailers don't stock them so do you spend time clicking on all the different hops on the malt miller till you find a description you like or change your whole brew to somthing else.
My wife wanted me to get a hobby now I make beer. She says I'm always in my shed I KEEP TELLING HER IT WAS HER IDEA.

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Re: Choosing hops

Post by Meatymc » Sat May 18, 2019 6:23 pm

PhilB wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:05 pm
Hi Meatymc
To be clear, I wasn't after credit (I first heard about the technique on an Aussie forum, so if anyone deserves credit it's someone down-under
Tough - you flagged it up and I benefitted from it so live with it :wink:
Mjr6313 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 1:49 pm
Also I feel this topic has veered down a road unintended by the wording of my original post,
...as is oft the case

As previously said somewhere by someone, find a beer you like - everything and I mean everything, comes down to personal taste. Once found check what hops are involved, and start from there.

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Re: Choosing hops

Post by Madbrewer » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:44 am

Meatymc wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:42 pm


By the way mjr, as a fellow Yorkshireman (though perhaps not as muted!), BIABer and no chiller, one really useful tip I was given on here to retain hop flavour/aroma, was to no chill then re-boil a gallon of wort and add the late addition hops (that don't work as late additions with no chill) and boil for 10 minutes. As it's only a gallon I'm able to then rapid cool in the sink with the aid of a bag of ice cubes, combine the 2 sets of wort and pitch.

It really works very well.
+1 for that - I do something similar.

I want a hop rocket but have yet to get one. Currently I am using a cafetiere, sinking hops in boiler water for 10 mins before pressing the juice into another receptacle. After separating the hops from the hop tea, I utilise the hops in the boil and add the tea at flame out (I usually boil with slightly less liquor than I need and liquor back at the end anyway.) No idea how aroma much it contributes really as I've not done a comparison brew but I'm not unhappy with the hoppiness of my beers generally (still want a hop rocket though).

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Re: Choosing hops

Post by Meatymc » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:10 pm

Madbrewer wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:44 am
I want a hop rocket but have yet to get one. Currently I am using a cafetiere, sinking hops in boiler water for 10 mins before pressing the juice into another receptacle. After separating the hops from the hop tea, I utilise the hops in the boil and add the tea at flame out (I usually boil with slightly less liquor than I need and liquor back at the end anyway.) No idea how aroma much it contributes really as I've not done a comparison brew but I'm not unhappy with the hoppiness of my beers generally (still want a hop rocket though).
After a lot of experimenting I'm now at a point where I don't really go for 'hoppiness' at all as part of the main boil - just bittering hops at the start. I only add to the extra 10 minute boil where I can get the temp down quickly but then mainly as a dry hop. Bear in mind I rarely do anything other than hoppy Pale Ales/IPA's.

I've also recently started to 'trust' my ability to clear the beer through temperature control and finings so simply throw in the whole hops or pellets without containing them in any way. The 3 brews I've done this way are all as clear as a bell.

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