Yeast Help Windsor vs S-04

[alwilson]

Morning Chaps,

I've a yeast problem, I once made, purely by luck it seems, a beer that finished at 1014 using windsor. In those days I've no idea what my mash temp was, my strike was about 72C though.. But couldnt tell you what my actual mash temp was.

From this batch, Windsor fermented down to 1014 without any issues... and the beer was delicious. Since learning to take proper measurements and the appropriate mash temps - i cannot recreate this beer anywhere near 1014, windsor stops at 1020, I know windsor is a low attenuator, so my question, Ive since brewed it with Nottingham, but all those fruity and malty flavours are lost, so I presume its the esters thrown from Windsor thats created those flavours.

Can I get a similar beer do you think, using Fermentis S-04, will that attenuate better than Windsor? I'm happy for as 1012 finish, I just dont want to dry it out using something like notthingham, equally, a pint of syrup at 1020 is unpleasant too.

Any thoughts or experience with s-04?

Cheers
Alex

[jaroporter]

how low have you mashed when using windsor?
i've only used S-04 a couple of times, when it's taken a beer from ~55 down to 11, so i'm not too knowledgable on it's attenuation, but i faaar prefer the windsor flavour and reckon you'll get a quite different beer with S-04. which you may like, but i'd definitely be thinking of trying a lower mash temperature or a dual-strain fermentation (windsor for flavour then another for attenuation) before resorting to S-04.

[alwilson]

Hiya

I mashed at 63 for this beer, so I fear throwing in some Nottingham (which I have on hand) might knock it down to 1007 or so...

I thought a 63 mash would have helped get Windsor down to to 1014, or even 1012, but no cigar

Cheers!

[seymour]

Part of your answer is in your question. It sounds like you appreciate some residual sweetness. It's not just the esters that Windsor produces, you're also enjoying the malt-triose it leaves in your beer, which Nottingham is much more efficient at fermenting. I agree 1020 is a bit too high, but don't be afraid of a slightly higher than expected FG, and no matter what, Windsor will always finish higher than Nottingham. Of course, that's neither here nor there, your personal taste preferences are all that matters.

Give your recipe another try with Windsor, but this time mash at a slightly cooler temp, for a longer duration, aerate the wort well, pitch two packets instead of one, and ferment a bit warmer and twice as long as before. Time is the key with Windsor, it's possible you were just more patient in the beginning.


Other more drastic measures:

-Consider simplifying your recipe by dialing-back the caramelized, unmalted, or more complex grains.

-Consider a multi-step mash, such as the classic Belgian scientist DeClerk recommended, or as detailed on this PDF.
113-122°F (45-50°C) for 30-45 minutes
144-145°F (62-63°C) for 30-45 minutes
158°F (70°C) for 30-45 minutes
167°F (75°C) mashout for 10-15 minutes

[super_simian]

2 packs can help, freshness is also an issue. Re-hydration may also help you. What was your OG?

[dhalse001]

I've had 1.019 with this yeast before (68% attenuation), and a couple more times again!

I mashed hot last time (68c), but expecting it to stop again at 1.019 I had increased the malt. Final result was that it followed me up, and stopped at 1.027 (57% attenuation). So, mash at low temps and increase the malt maybe?

Dave.

[super_simian]

By "increase the malt" do you mean increase the starting gravity by mashing more malt? Not only will this cause a low attenuating yeast like Windsor to crap out even earlier, but it will totally change the character of the beer. You need to stop thinking of FG as an independent figure, and see it as a product of OG, temperature+time (of both the mash and fermentation) and that yeast's particular attributes (in addition to other factors.)

That said, there are ways to coax a yeast like Windsor to the upper end of its' attenuation range . Mash temperature is a biggie, but mash thickness plays a part (thinner=more fermentable) as does the length of the saccharification rest. Yeast health is another area to play with; re-hydrating, adding some yeast nutrient to the wort, aerating (I know dry yeast doesn't "need" aeration, but it couldn't hurt) or simply pitching more yeast are all options, as is fermenting at the higher end of the temperature range (21C or 22C for Windsor) and raising the temp towards the end of fermentation.

I've never experienced super low attenuation from Windsor, in fact it's set in my brewing software as ~72%AA based on experience - which isn't far behind 04 - and I craft my recipe accordingly. Also, I reckon it tastes way better than 04 in almost any recipe.

[norstar]

I've used Windsor twice and like the character, but the attenuation is rubbish - which is kind of the point.

The first brew was a mash temp of about 68 degrees and it only scraped about 60% attenuation. But then the OG was higher as well. I fermented at 18 degrees.

The current brew was mashed at 50 odd degrees and gradually brought up to 63 for an hour or so. It's gone from 1.038 to 1.013 in 9 days, so 65% attenuation. This could be the temp or could be the lower OG. I fermented at 20 degrees.

Was kind of hoping for more attenuation than 65% but there you go...

[super_simian]

FG alone does not a clear post make. What was your OG, did either beer contain simple sugar or other adjuncts; and what was your mash temp? All variables need consideration.