re using yeast

Share your experiences of using brewing yeast.
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MashBag
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Re: re using yeast

Post by MashBag » Thu May 06, 2021 8:06 am

An Ankoù wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 7:44 am

Philosophical question: Is science our servant or our master?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
That's not a question 😂 that's a new topic. Probably with a beer and a fire 👍

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Re: re using yeast

Post by McMullan » Thu May 06, 2021 8:40 am

IPA wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 7:14 am
McMullan wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 1:46 pm
An Ankoù wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 12:40 pm
If you want a serious authority on yeast, this is the one: Yeast:the practical guide to beer fermentation by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff.
:lol:
That was a very restrained reply Mcmullan. Probably too restrained for most to understand.
Most of it reads like a plagiarised lab manual offering very little practical use to the home brewer, in reality. The rest is kind of a bit waffly, based on cherry-picked opinions more than established best practices; again of very little practical use to the home brewer. If you can’t sleep at night, I’m sure reading a page or two’s going to put you out like a light. You’ll get acceptable results following White Lab’s standard instructions, of course. I find my method works much better, but I’m not selling anything packaged as ‘convenient for home brewers’. Obviously, Chris White is very good at selling yeast. Probably much better at selling yeast than me. My sales pitch: “Either you want it or you don’t, don’t waste my time. Do as I say or don’t bother. This is about culturing brewer’s yeast not skinning cats.” My method, which has been develop through serious research in home brew over several years, and is closer to what pros in breweries and labs do compared with home brewers misguided by people selling ‘convenient’ products, requires little more than a few jars, yeast and fermentable wort. No need for even the most basic piece of yeast lab equipment, the microscope. You can’t get more practical than that for the home brewer. I’d recommend making wort fresh from grain, too. I’m convinced it’s more nutritious for the yeast than DME. Obviously, cleanliness alone’s not going to grow much at all. The key really has always been to apply science: the methodology that allows better understanding of observable processes, so that they can be improved and developed further. Belief in romantic stories is the complete opposite and promotes looking backwards not forwards.

As for the romantic story about ‘kveik’. That’s exactly what it is; a romantic story, knitted together with imagination rather than convincing evidence. An engineered celebration of a historical lack of cultural development in one of the poorest places in Europe. Spin on steroids, you could say. What some people sometimes cling on to as ‘evidence’ can get a little desperate. Maybe they’re a tad insecure about a destitute history, I don’t know. They don’t like to talk about it. I do like a good yarn, but I take exception when people start talking shit. A story of survival at the edges of agriculture? I wonder if that’s from the book? Or Netflix? Agriculturally speaking, Norway is on the periphery of civilisation: there’s hardly any arable land in Norway. Even today it’s the least self-sufficient country in the world. Historically, cereal crops grown in Norway tended to fail due to the miserable climate and lack of tolerant varieties. Imports were essential, to feed people, but likely too sporadic, especially following independence from Danish rule, to be brewing romantically in the hills. The belief that traditional brewers ‘just got a brew on for next weekend’s party at the drop of a hat’ is a stretch of the imagination. Import of easy-to-grow spuds was a blessing. For the hungry, that is. Moonshiners too. The rest is history; why kveik behave just like distiller’s yeast. Obviously, the most likely isn’t so romantic, but it is what it is. What we accept or believe is entirely up to us. But know this. Bullshit is contagious. When someone asks ‘Where’s the evidence?’ don’t offer bigger beliefs. That’s brazen.

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An Ankoù
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Re: re using yeast

Post by An Ankoù » Thu May 06, 2021 9:29 am

That's better. "If it doesn't move, poke it with a stick" is my motto.
Do I detect more than a little professional jealousy here, in respect of White? For those of us, like myself, who are ignorant about your "product", what is it you're flogging? I'd love to give it a go and offer a fair and unbiased opinion afterwards. Nothing wring with using "a few jars" for culturing, says the man who advocates plastic buckets for fermenters!
As for Lars Marius Garshol's saga, he deals with more than Norway, tracing "farmhouse" practices across most of Scandinavia and the Baltic countries. He talks about the agricultural and economic issues you mention above and I think you would concur. His book is well worth reading. It's not a science book, but a history book. Yes, I've tried three of the kveik isolates and, with one exception which worked well, I don't like the flavours they give.
"Obviously, cleanliness alone’s not going to grow much at all." Agreed. But without cleanliness as a precondition, whatever you do grow is going to be somewhat uncertain and probably useless. that's why I said everything else is secondary.
So come on, let's have it. What's your method? If there's a post on the forum outlining it, I'd appreciate a link as you have more than a few posts to trawl through.
I'm cheap. Just give me beer.

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MashBag
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Re: re using yeast

Post by MashBag » Thu May 06, 2021 11:13 am

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

That I have to say that is been the best read on the forum I have had in ages. Well done that man, you have brightened my day.

So many takeaways ..

"I do like a good yarn, but I take exception when people start talking shit"

"But know this. Bullshit is contagious."

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Re: re using yeast

Post by McMullan » Thu May 06, 2021 11:34 am

An Ankoù wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 9:29 am

:pink:
I have a lot of respect for Chris White and Jenny Logsdon (Wyeast Labs). They did a lot for people like you. I don’t think I’ve got the patience, to be honest. In fact, I'm lying. I know I haven't. My customers are a bit more advanced generally and certainly a lot less demanding. I wouldn’t sell to you even if you were buying. One of the benefits of being the boss :D

Yeah, Norway’s not the only place in Europe with an unfortunate history where poverty scuppered cultural development. That’s about all we can say about it, really, isn’t it? There’s really not much worth clinging on to, in my honest opinion, unless it’s your thing. Romanticism and storytelling, that is. Don’t get me wrong, I thought it (kveik) was quite fascinating, initially. I think I even promoted it here on Jim’s several years back. Then I noticed grand speculation seemed to be offered up as some kind ‘well-documented fact’. 'Incomplete' was mistaken for 'complete'. Then the bullshit radar buzzed off the scales. 'Up' was 'down' and 'black' was 'white'. As for the kveik yeast stored in my yeast bank, I dumped them. Not to my taste, I'm afraid. Horrible. Some people manage to hide it, with hops mainly, but I don’t brew those kinds of niche beers.

Please be careful with that stick of yours. You’ve already pocked yourself in the eye once or twice. I’m wondering if you’ve migrated from elsewhere merely to promote discord. It fits the profile so far, doesn't it? :bonk

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An Ankoù
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Re: re using yeast

Post by An Ankoù » Thu May 06, 2021 12:40 pm

Abuse from beginning to end. No content, just a rant and silly emoticons. I wonder if you've really got anything to say! Looking back through the thread, I see you've knocked a few people, but given them nothing in return. Dissent? I don't think so, but I've seen enough people like you to last several lifetimes, thanks. Look back at your dancing elephants and silly head hammering. Then take a look and reflect on your clip from Benny Hill and take it to heart. Do you remember your kind response when a member took you to task for it? It was "Piss off, muppet", Dissent?
Time to put you on the ignore list McMuppet, before I say something I shouldn't.
I'm cheap. Just give me beer.

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Re: re using yeast

Post by McMullan » Thu May 06, 2021 1:38 pm

:-({|= :-({|= :-({|=

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barneey
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Re: re using yeast

Post by barneey » Fri May 07, 2021 2:24 pm

FWIW, I have played around with many types of yeast in the past.

The only "freezing" method that I have found that works is using the "Yeasty Balls" aka the microbank product. This method does however take a lot of work to grow a sample of yeast back up to something that is pitchable so would only really recommend it if you want to store a very rare, not easily available yeast.

As for McMullan's yeast samples, from personal experience they are as good / if not better than most of the larger companies selling yeast to homebrewers.

These days, depending on the brew I will either use a fresh dried yeast for convenience or revive a top cropper from a stored fridge example, bite the £bullet and buy a liquid yeast or yeast slope (aiming to get at least 3 or 4 brews from the thing).

IMHO storing lots of yeast and keeping them in a good condition takes time and ultimately money, I've tried to keep my range down to just a few now.

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Eric
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Re: re using yeast

Post by Eric » Fri May 07, 2021 5:39 pm

Indeed it does take time and money to keep a stock of wet yeast, mine is of more than a dozen. Some of those came from McMullan slants, which are of the highest quality and viability I've known.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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Re: re using yeast

Post by trucker5774 » Sun May 16, 2021 10:20 am

There is best practice and there is "this works for me". For years I have drained the boiler straight onto a yeast cake from the last brew. I always scoop about 200ml of yeast from the cake and store it bottled in the fridge. I first did it as a standby for running out of other yeast. it then became routine. I warm to room temperature on brew day. I pitch it and usually see fermentation within 6 hours.
John

Drinking/Already drunk........ Trucker's Anti-Freeze (Turbo Cider), Truckers Delight, Night Trucker, Rose wine, Truckers Hitch, Truckers Revenge, Trucker's Lay-by, Trucker's Trailer, Flower Truck, Trucker's Gearshift, Trucker's Horn, Truck Crash, Fixby Gold!

Conditioning... Doing what? Get it down your neck! ........

FV 1............
FV 2............
FV 3............
Next Brews..... Trucker's Jack Knife

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MashBag
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Re: re using yeast

Post by MashBag » Mon May 17, 2021 7:40 am

trucker5774 wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 10:20 am
There is best practice and there is "this works for me"
That's a good phrase and so true.

Different folks different strokes.

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Re: re using yeast

Post by McMullan » Mon May 17, 2021 8:21 am

trucker5774 wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 10:20 am
There is best practice and there is "this works for me".
Absolutely, where 'this works for me' reflects a continuum of abilities, aims, criteria considered 'acceptable' and opinions vs best practices, ranging from those who enjoy beer and strive to continuously improve the beer they make to those who just want to get p*ssed. I think the PC phrase used these days is 'diversity'.

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Re: re using yeast

Post by trucker5774 » Mon May 17, 2021 1:00 pm

I agree, McMullan. Sometimes exacting methods can produce great results. The problem I find at homebrew levels is that the small volumes make it hard to adjust things, A KG of hops in the brewery is a small tweak. A few grams at home level coupled with a few minutes on the boil etc makes replication difficult. I have strived over the years to produce top results. What I do now is perhaps at the 95% level. Do I notice a difference for the 94% or 96% effort, no not really. I've given up on achieving a brew to within 100ml or a gram of hops or a particular pitch rate of yeast. I have found the salvaged yeast cake, given a quick rinse and (currently) on its 5th generation works well. I've done it side by side with the original yeast and not noticed any difference. I experimented for years with liquid and dried yeasts. Certainly there are differences and hat's off to those who pursue brilliance. I'm at the stage of enjoying what I've brewed early and as it matures. As with commercial beer and wine, some would say there is good and bad, some would say you simply like it or you don't. All hail 'diversity'
John

Drinking/Already drunk........ Trucker's Anti-Freeze (Turbo Cider), Truckers Delight, Night Trucker, Rose wine, Truckers Hitch, Truckers Revenge, Trucker's Lay-by, Trucker's Trailer, Flower Truck, Trucker's Gearshift, Trucker's Horn, Truck Crash, Fixby Gold!

Conditioning... Doing what? Get it down your neck! ........

FV 1............
FV 2............
FV 3............
Next Brews..... Trucker's Jack Knife

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MashBag
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Re: re using yeast

Post by MashBag » Wed May 19, 2021 7:16 am

McMullan wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 8:21 am

Absolutely, where 'this works for me' reflects a continuum of abilities, aims, criteria considered 'acceptable' and opinions vs best practices, ranging from those who enjoy beer and strive to continuously improve the beer they make to those who just want to get p*ssed. I think the PC phrase used these days is 'diversity'.
I do dispare at the ammount of "let's get pissed" folks there are but I do find a 5hr+ brewday tends to filter them out. :D

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