In search of English ale yeast heaven

Share your experiences of using brewing yeast.
Clibit
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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Clibit » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:42 am

YeastWhisperer wrote:I have been searching for English Ale Yeast Heaven for twenty-three years. :) The closest that I have come to nirvana is Young's Ram Brewery strain.
As in Wyeast 1318?

YeastWhisperer

Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by YeastWhisperer » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:20 pm

Clibit wrote:As in Wyeast 1318?
No, as in Wyeast 1768 English Special Bitter. That yeast culture is 100% guaranteed to be Young's because I know how Wyeast acquired it. White Labs WLP033 Klassic Ale is also Young's strain. Neither of these cultures are currently being propagated, but I heard that Wyeast plans to offer Wyeast 1768 in 2016 as a "PC" strain.

By the way, Wyeast 1318 is Boddington's (or at least an isolate of Boddington's culture).
Last edited by YeastWhisperer on Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Clibit
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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Clibit » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:23 pm

That's interesting about 1768.

I read an email from Young's brewery in London that somebody posted on a forum once which said 1318 is from the Young's brewery. And Wyeast says 1318 is from a London brewery. But, whatever it is, I'm certain 1318 is not Boddington's. I used to drink cask Boddington's a lot and 1318 would never make that beer.

YeastWhisperer

Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by YeastWhisperer » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:36 pm

Clibit wrote:That's interesting about 1768.

I read an email from Young's brewery in London that somebody posted on a forum once which said 1318 is from the Young's brewery. And Wyeast says 1318 is from a London brewery. But, whatever it is, I'm certain 1318 is not Boddington's. I used to drink cask Boddington's a lot and 1318 would never make that beer.
I hate to say it, but the letter was a forgery or it was meant to misinform because 1768 is Young's yeast. I know where Wyeast obtained the strain back in the nineties. The naming of the cultures back then were "winks and nods" to their sources of origin. The English Special Bitter name is derived from Young's Special London Ale just like Wyeast 1968 is called London ESB Ale after Fuller's ESB. Wyeast 2035 used to be called "New Ulm Lager," which was a nod to the source of the culture; namely, August Schell. Back then, Wyeast 1098 was called Whitbread Ale and Wyeast 1028 was called Whiteshield Ale. Wyeast and later White Labs became more secretive as the home brewing market grew, and the probability of getting sued over trademark infringement became a reality. While a few cultures were collected surreptitiously using sterile q-tips and other easy to conceal collection techniques, most of the cultures that are available today were freely given to home brewers by professional brewers or isolated from bottle conditioned beer. No one cared when the home brewing community was small. Now, everyone wants their piece of the pie.

I can tell you without hesitation that most of the source data on the Mr. Malty site is correct. I was part of the community while the strains were being collected. The Lion's share of the cultures in the Wyeast and White Labs collections came directly or indirectly from the American home brewing community. I was passing yeast around on slant and receiving yeast on slant. Two sources of concentration existed at that point in time; namely, Dr. Maribeth Raines of BrewTek, and Dr. Daniel McConnell of the Yeast Culture Kit, Co. These companies sold yeast on slant. The also collected yeast on slant as well as non-plated cultures from home brewers within the community. From what I understand, Dan McConnell transferred several hundred cultures to Chris White when he shuttered the Yeast Culture Kit, Co.

One last thing, many of the cultures that are sold today may not be the complete culture. Many of the cultures brought back from the UK were isolated without verifying if the cultures were mixed cultures.

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Clibit » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:58 pm

I'm just saying 1318 is not Boddingtons. So what is it?

http://www.beerinator.com/community/ind ... opic=165.0

And the Wyeast site says " originating from a traditional London brewery..."

And were all these strains just robbed or did the breweries get compensated?! Are they lying about the origin to cover their dodgy tracks?! Or is the strain as they say from a London brewery?

YeastWhisperer

Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by YeastWhisperer » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:23 am

There's little doubt that Dave Logsdon may haven been playing coy. After all, he said, "I am not sure if you received a response to your inquiry, about 1318 London Ale yeast, but it may be a strain that is used in the Young's Brewery." Hopefully, you noticed that he said that the culture "may," not the culture "is."

The Wyeast collection contained six ale strains when I started brewing. The strains from the UK and Ireland were Whitbread "B" (1098), Worthington Whiteshield (1028), and Guiness (1084). Wyeast 1056 (from Siebel BRY 96 via Sierra Nevada) was the only American strain. Wyeast 1007 (from Zum Uerige via Widmer) and Wyeast 1338 (from Gary Bauer) rounded out the German ale strains. Only one home brewing club in the United States had their own yeast collection; namely, the Maltose Falcons in Los Angeles. Dr. Maribeth Raines was a Falcon.

I do not believe that most of the strains sold by Wyeast and White Labs today were originally nicked from breweries. Many were freely given to home brewers who visited the UK and Europe. Others were collected from cask-conditioned and bottle-conditioned beer in the UK and in the U.S. Most of the strains that we enjoy today were the result of American home brewers scratching an itch for quality brewing strains. I know that it is difficult for British brewers to believe today, but the UK home brewing scene was light years ahead of American home brewing scene when I first started brewing in the early nineties. Most of the early kit beers and canned extract came from the UK. One of the first beers that I made was a kit beer called Bruce's Dogbolter. Man, that stuff was dreadful. Mostly because the extract was old by the time it hit our shores, but also because Edme dry yeast was atrocious. Plating and slanting yeast became a survival tactic because Wyeast smack packs were difficult to obtain.

As I stated above, Maribeth and Dan became culture collection centers. They had access to laboratory equipment and -80C or better refrigeration; therefore, many home brewers who managed to collect a unique strain sought their assistance in maintaining it. Almost all of the early White Labs strains were Wyeast strains. Wyeast was in business for the better part of a decade before White Labs entered the market. Chris White was just another home brewer collecting yeast strains when I started to home brew. The true innovators were Maribeth Raines and Dan McConnell. Maribeth was the first to offer Fuller's and Young's. The strains were BrewTek CL-160 and BrewTek Cl-170 respectively. Heck, White Labs was not even crafty about their nicking of CL-170 from BrewTek. BrewTek called the strain CL-170 Classic British Ale. Guess what White Labs calls the strain? WLP033 Klassic Ale!

BrewTek CL-160 British Draft Ale (Fuller's)
One of our (Brewtek's) favorite Ale yeasts, gives a full bodied, well rounded flavor with a touch of diacetyl. This yeast has a way of emphasizing malt character like no other yeast we've used. Highly recommended for Porters and Bitters.

BrewTek CL-170 Classic British Ale (Young's)
Like CL-160, produces a beautiful draft bitter or Porter. This yeast leaves a complex ale with very British tones and fruit like esters, it also produces a classic Scottish Heavy and plays well in high gravity worts.

Look at how White Labs describes WLP033

WLP033 Klassic Ale Yeast (Young's)

Traditional English style, single strain yeast. Produces signature ester character, and does not mask hop character. Leaves ale with a slightly sweet malt character. Best for bitters, milds, porters, and stouts. Also good for Scottish style ales.

Look at how Wyeast describes Wyeast 1968

YEAST STRAIN: 1968 | London ESB Ale™

A very good cask conditioned ale strain, this extremely flocculant yeast produces distinctly malty beers. Attenuation levels are typically less than most other yeast strains which results in a slightly sweeter finish. Ales produced with this strain tend to be fruity, increasingly so with higher fermentation temperatures of 70-74°F (21-23° C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete. Bright beers are easily achieved within days without any filtration.

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Clibit » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:43 am

Ok cheers. Interesting.

Be good to work out where 1318 is from, it's not Boddingtons, so where is it?

Why would they say traditional London brewery? Twud be pretty naff to make that up. And unnecessary.

Also, 1768 dorsnt seem to be listed in the Wyeast yeast strains guide.

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wally
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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by wally » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:41 am

Clibit,

1768 is a PC strain.

Check out this link at Wyeast. http://www.wyeastlab.com/PC4thq2013.cfm

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Clibit » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:13 pm

Cheers Wally. Only available from time to time. How does the private collection work? Don't tel me they nicked our yeast strains and have now privatised them?! :-)

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wally
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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by wally » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:32 pm

They release several PC strains every three months. It seems like a marketing strategy.

I'm waiting for them to release 1882 PC. It was last released about 5 years ago and I have used up my last supply.

I have emailed them asking when they are likely to re-release but only received a vague reply, hence my question, in another thread.

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Clibit » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:34 pm

I'll have to keep an eye on the PC strains.

You could phone Brewlabs and ask if they have the 1882 strain, they may well do.

Cheers Wally.

YeastWhisperer

Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by YeastWhisperer » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:47 pm

From what I understand, Wyeast plans to release 1768 as a PC strain in 2016. It used to be a production strain until the collection grew as large as it is today. Culling had to occur, and 1768 was one of the strains that were culled from standard production. The PC program is a way to offer strains for which there is demand, but the demand is not high enough to warrant standard production. The propagators propagate the strains that the home brew retailers order.

The Fuller's and Young's strains are similar. The difference being that Young's is slightly more attenuative, and it has a very unique ester profile that can be be described as "lollipop" when the beer is young. I know that that description sounds weird, but the ester is soft and it plays well with Goldings and the residual sweetness left by the yeast. Young's strain is one that screams "I'm British!" The ester profile does not play as well with the citrus and pine laden hop cultivars that dominate the American craft and home brewing scenes. Although, Centennial, with its floral notes, can be made to work with Youngs. Using citrus and pine hops with this strain is like Duvel Moortgat using Mosaic in Duvel (that stuff was horrible).
Last edited by YeastWhisperer on Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Clibit » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:25 pm

Thanks again, interesting. I would have thought that 1768 would have more demand than some of the yeasts that are available all year round, from all those wanting to make authentic English beer styles. Given your description and its origins.

YeastWhisperer

Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by YeastWhisperer » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:51 pm

Authentic English-style ale is currently not very popular in the United States. While my generation took up brewing to brew English-style ale and continental-style lager because only American standard lager and imported beer was available to us, the lion's share of young people who take up the hobby today do so to make American IPA, Saison, and sours. Part of the problem has to do with how poorly the average British beer travels. By the time that most British beer reaches an American retailer, the hops have faded and the beer is caramel mess. That is that flavor most American home brewers associate with British beer, as can be witnessed by the winning recipe for the 2014 National Homebrewing Competition category 8 (English Pale Ale) gold medal winner shown below. The recipe contains 21% caramel malt. That is a stupid amount of caramel malt. Sadly, it is what British beer tastes like to trained beer judges by the time that it reaches most of the country. Those of us who are lucky enough to live by a Peter Austin and Partners-built brewery or have visited the UK know that British beer does not taste like a caramel mess when fresh.

2014 NHC Category 8 English Pale Ale

Full Monty British Pale Ale
Special/Best/Premium Bitter
Dennis Collins, Knoxfille, TN

For 6.5 US gallons

8.0 lbs Fawcett Pearl malt
1.0 Vienna malt
1.0 CaraRed malt
1.0 60 L crystal malt
8.0 oz 20L crystal malt
8.0 oz wheat malt
1.0 oz Wye Challenger pellets @ 60 minutes
0.75 Goldings pellets @ 15 minutes

Wyeast 1028 London Ale yeast
CO2: 2.3 vols

Primary Fermentation: 14 days at 68 F
Secondary Fermentation: 14 days at 68 F

Original Specific Gravity: 1.053
Final Specific Gravity: 1.010
Boiling Time: 60 minutes

Directions:
Mash at 152 F for 60 minutes
Last edited by YeastWhisperer on Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

YeastWhisperer

Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by YeastWhisperer » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:08 pm

Clibit wrote: Why would they say traditional London brewery? Twud be pretty naff to make that up. And unnecessary.

Do you want to see where Wyeast completely messed up when naming a strain? Wyeast 2124 is called Bohemian Lager. However, Wyeast 2124 is W-34/70, which is the prototypical tetraploid Frohberg (German) yeast strain. True Bohemian lager strains belong to a triploid family of yeast strains known as the Saaz family.

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