In search of English ale yeast heaven

Share your experiences of using brewing yeast.
Clibit
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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Clibit » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:20 pm

OK. But 1318 is not Boddingtons. Which casts doubt on all the claims, doesn't it?! :-)

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Dennis King
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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Dennis King » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:40 pm

One thing that makes me wonder about the Mr Malt list is claim WLP013 London ale yeast is Worthington white shield. I used to grow the white shield yeast from bottles for probably around 15 years or so in the 1980's early 90's until it became hard to find. I have used WLP013 a fair bit but would not say they are the same yeast. I find it strange why they would market it as London rather than Burton as white shield is big part of the Burton heritage so would have had a bigger marketing potential as well as being misleading. After all people will buy certain ingredients to create certain beers.

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Wonkydonkey » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:01 am

Fyi, I have an email from fullers saying gales HSB is bottle conditioned with the gales yeast strain. At the mo, 4 bottles for £5 at asda. So that's a few beers and 4 goes at reculturing the yeast, for prob less than the price of a vile.

And I have recultured youngs London special from the bottle. Which is very nice, although I have just used a new yeast from a youngs bottle, not the special, and for some reason it taste a bit different, but I have only used it in one brew so it's early stages and the last could have mutated over a few brews.

I tried S&N 1698, but was not impressed with what the yeast did with beer, it was a bit flavour-less..

I will be following this thread with great interest :wink: I fancy trying a few new bottles of beer with free yeast inside.
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Clibit
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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Clibit » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:27 am

Thanks for the Gales HSB tip.

Dennis - I have my doubts about the Mr Malty list too, bits of it anyway.

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by YeastWhisperer » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:39 am

Dennis King wrote:One thing that makes me wonder about the Mr Malt list is claim WLP013 London ale yeast is Worthington white shield. I used to grow the white shield yeast from bottles for probably around 15 years or so in the 1980's early 90's until it became hard to find. I have used WLP013 a fair bit but would not say they are the same yeast. I find it strange why they would market it as London rather than Burton as white shield is big part of the Burton heritage so would have had a bigger marketing potential as well as being misleading. After all people will buy certain ingredients to create certain beers.
Wyeast 1028 was cultured from a bottle of White Shield. It is one of Wyeast's original strains; therefore, it was more than likely cultured before 1986. There was a lot of debate in the early to mid-nineties about this yeast strain. Many home brewers believed that Worthington used a different strain for bottling than they did for primary fermentation.

The thing about the early White Labs strains is that they are at least two isolates from the original culture because they are isolated from a culture that Wyeast isolated. Chris White did not offer much that was new when he started White Labs. White Labs claim to fame was "ready to pitch." A White Labs preform contained a huge amount of yeast compared to an original Wyeast smack pack.

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by YeastWhisperer » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:53 am

Clibit wrote:Thanks for the Gales HSB tip.

Dennis - I have my doubts about the Mr Malty list too, bits of it anyway.
There is little doubt in my mind that the early strains are spot on. The IIs and IIIs can be iffy. There were also strains in the Wyeast collection for a period of time that had different accession numbers, but were the same strain. From what I understand, the duplicates have been removed. The one Mr. Malty source entry that I am positive is wrong is Wyeast 1026. I have the Orangeboom Ale strain that was isolated in February of 1925 by A.C. van Wijck in my bank. The parent strain is CBS 1171, but it is also known as NCYC 505 and NRRL Y-12632. This strain performs nothing like Wyeast 1026.

https://catalogue.ncyc.co.uk/saccharomy ... visiae-505

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by YeastWhisperer » Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:16 am

I know that a lot of people like WLP022, but I found it to be nothing special when I used the strain last June. I found WLP022 to be lacking in character.

The yeast strain with which I am currently on the fence is NCYC 1333. The strain is a work of art from a production point of view, but it is an attenuation monster. NCYC 1333 turned 1.053 wort into 6% ABV beer.

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Kyle_T » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:35 am

YeastWhisperer wrote:I know that a lot of people like WLP022, but I found it to be nothing special when I used the strain last June. I found WLP022 to be lacking in character.
Maybe you just didn't use it in the right beers? It have to original strain fresh from a brewery and it's a wonderfully characteristic yeast, attenuates well and welds to the bottom of a bottle.
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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Dennis King » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:59 pm

YeastWhisperer wrote:Wyeast 1028 was cultured from a bottle of White Shield. It is one of Wyeast's original strains; therefore, it was more than likely cultured before 1986. There was a lot of debate in the early to mid-nineties about this yeast strain. Many home brewers believed that Worthington used a different strain for bottling than they did for primary fermentation.
I was using white shield from late 1979 to around 1994 and I would say it was there was never any change in that period. When it resurfaced, around 10 years later they had stopped using the primary strain.

Also I go back to why are they so mis-named. If I want to brew a Burton style beer and buy a Burton ale I would not expect it to come from Berkshire. Misleading to the point of being almost criminal.

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Dennis King » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:50 pm

Kyle_T wrote:
YeastWhisperer wrote:I know that a lot of people like WLP022, but I found it to be nothing special when I used the strain last June. I found WLP022 to be lacking in character.
Maybe you just didn't use it in the right beers? It have to original strain fresh from a brewery and it's a wonderfully characteristic yeast, attenuates well and welds to the bottom of a bottle.
Agree having tried WLP002 and the same strain direct from an established Essex brewery who have been using the the strain continuously for over 40 years I have say there is no comparison. Having said that the beers I made using WLP022 was certainly not lacking character.

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by YeastWhisperer » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:29 am

Dennis King wrote:
YeastWhisperer wrote: Also I go back to why are they so mis-named. If I want to brew a Burton style beer and buy a Burton ale I would not expect it to come from Berkshire. Misleading to the point of being almost criminal.
We can second guess why the cultures were given the names that they carry, but I believe it was as simple as Wyeast and White Labs had to give each culture a unique name. As I mentioned earlier, 1028 was originally called White Shield Ale. How that name morphed into London Ale is anyone's guess. One thing we do know is that the two big propagators here in the United States were tiny companies that could not withstand trademark infringement torts. They were selling primarily to American home brewers who did not know if the names accurately represented the culture, nor did they care. Most Americans were/are not attempting to accurately recreate British beers. Only inquisitive American brewers like yours truly really give a darn if a London culture accurately reflects the characteristics of a London culture.

The average American brewer's standard ale yeast is BRY 96 in the form of Wyeast 1056, White Labs WLP001, and/or Fermentis US-05. If he/she wants to use a "British" strain, it is usually a forgiving British strain such as Wyeast 1968/White Labs WLP002. The truly adventurous may try Wyeast 1028 or Wyeast 1098/White Labs WLP007. The tendency here is to use a neutral yeast strain or ferment a non-neutral strain below the temperature where it exhibits its unique character. The beers are hop forward with malt only playing a supporting role. Yeast-derived flavors are reserved for Belgian styles. Alan Pugsley said it best in the interview linked below:

http://allaboutbeer.com/article/with-alan-pugsley/

"People say Ringwood yeast leaves a distinctive flavor. Can you take a sip of a beer and identify it as a Ringwood beer?

It depends on what I’m tasting it against. I can tell you, there are some yeasts out there that are a lot more distinctive than Ringwood, no question about it. Ringwood has its own slant and character: it’s very English. When you go to England, people over there will say the Ringwood yeast is pretty neutral. It depends on how you look at it. If you look at it from an English standpoint, it’s pretty neutral; if you look at it from an American standpoint, people think it has a signature. All I can say is it produces great beer."

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Bierhaus » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:35 am

Speaking of the Young's strain, it was one of my favorite yeasts years ago and I distinctly remember on multiple occasions how it produced a grape lollipop character in my bitters when the beer was young. After a few weeks, the beers had a wonderfully nuanced and lightly fruity character, really made a nice pint.

I was also a big fan of the Thames Valley II strain, which I would love to brew with again if it ever comes out.

My current favorite British yeast is WLP006 Bedford, which for my tastes may be among the most perfect yeasts for bitters. I currently do product development for a large US craft brewery and one of my favorite moments was brewing a one-off, 500 bbl batch of English pale with this yeast. Probably the biggest volume of beer that yeast strain has seen in the US.

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Rookie » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:47 pm

Last month I brewed an English pale ale with Munton's that turned out real good.
IMHO this is a very underappreciated yeast.
I'm just here for the beer.

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Clibit » Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:17 pm

Interesting, I just bottled my first beer made with WLP006 yesterday, and it tasted very promising. This yeast might really suit me.

And I am drinking a pale ale I made with Munton's yeast recently, and I agree, it's a much maligned yeast but this beer is really good, and the yeast contribution is much better than I expected. It's the standard, cheaper Munton's yeast, not the Premium Gold. Do you use dry yeasts for convenience, or do you think some are as good as the liquid English yeasts?

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Re: In search of English ale yeast heaven

Post by Rookie » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:24 am

Clibit wrote:Interesting, I just bottled my first beer made with WLP006 yesterday, and it tasted very promising. This yeast might really suit me.

And I am drinking a pale ale I made with Munton's yeast recently, and I agree, it's a much maligned yeast but this beer is really good, and the yeast contribution is much better than I expected. It's the standard, cheaper Munton's yeast, not the Premium Gold. Do you use dry yeasts for convenience, or do you think some are as good as the liquid English yeasts?
I use them mostly for convenience and they are cheaper, but I wouldn't if the results weren't good.
There are a few that I use only liquid on: WLP007 for British IPA, Wyeast 1728 for Scottish ales, WLP004 for Irish stout.
I'm just here for the beer.

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