wyeast 1187 ringwood

Share your experiences of using brewing yeast.
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Re: wyeast 1187 ringwood

Post by PeeBee » Sun May 17, 2020 1:35 pm

McMullan wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:33 pm
I'm really not sure what was supposed to have happened (or didn't) to be so anxious, let alone to be 'picking over the lessons learnt'. It was a fermentation, not a national crisis. Perhaps you should discuss it with this bloke. He seems to know what he's typing about :^o :lol:
I've a niggle to get out my findings on this subject given that I've been rumbled writing posts with little credit given to whoever it was driving me to dig up those findings. And only now I realise the "Bloke" post (above) is on a different forum. That wasn't plagiarism, that was research! And I'm a bit of a tart when it comes to which forum I do what on (i.e. no preference; though this forum might get more cleverer answers but the other forum just gets more answers).

So, my old method of building starters (based on monitoring SG) was flawed. I was using yeast starter calculators to predict the outcome but felt uncomfortable with how they worked (like "target pitch rate"; well the yeast will know what type of beer it's destined for and act accordingly … won't it?) and how to know where it's all at? And I was mixing up "scientific stages" ("lag phase" and the like) with "observable stages" ("not doing anything yet" through to "it's trying to climb out of the flask"). When does one stage finish and another start? That's easy, when the yeast has built up the numbers it needs it goes on to getting on with fermenting. And the yeast knows the numbers it needs because you selected the appropriate "target pitch rate" … err :-k .

It seems obvious to me now; The calculators can only work within a month, perhaps two, of the yeast pack being manufactured. Outside of that you must rely on experience, guesstimates and a bit of luck. I'd read up a bit on "vitality", the seemingly missing parameter in the calculators because how do you put a figure on "vitality" (the calculators base their calculations on "viability" or cell count). "Vitality" is the yeast's "get up and go". It's the difference between fermenting in two days and fermenting in two weeks for the same cell count.

So, after much though and messing about (I'm good at the latter) I came up with this approach to "calculating" vitality. The yeast starter calculator I use is "Homebrew Dad" ("BrewUnited") which has the key feature of supporting multiple step starters: I'd concluded that for problematic and old yeast packs I needed to allow the yeast's "vitality" to catch up with it's "viability" and for that it will need time. So instead of starting with a 500-800ml starter, I'll start with 200ml (or smaller?). And the next step will be 600ml, and the next 1800ml, etc. (for a 45L batch). 18-24 hours between steps (as normal). So having reached a starter of over 2L the calculator will be predicting sufficient cell count and "vitality" should be in good order too?

This multiple "stepping up" is the same as folk coaxing yeast out of a bottle. Or starting yeast from a slope culture. Or even culturing the best from a commercial yeast pack using only a tiny sample from it.

My thanks to "McMullen" and "f00b4r" for setting me on this course, although they probably both resent being implicated by me in the babblings of a lunatic.

Next up: Practical illustration of it working (perhaps too well!).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

McMullan

Re: wyeast 1187 ringwood

Post by McMullan » Sun May 17, 2020 11:18 pm

B:O

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Re: wyeast 1187 ringwood

Post by PeeBee » Mon May 18, 2020 10:06 am

^^^^^ The predicted response of someone not liking to be implicated in sparking off my long-winded babbling!

Hopefully my yeast starter predictions will be equally as accurate.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: wyeast 1187 ringwood

Post by PeeBee » Mon May 18, 2020 2:16 pm

For an actual comparison, each starting from a freshly opened pack intended for 25L. First off the old "flawed" technique of just giving more time (2 steps, close to best-before date, for 23L batch). This is what I published in an earlier post but scaled to better compare with the following graph:
PedwarDegNawGraph.JPG
And using the multi-step method (4 steps, month past BBE date, for 45L batch):
Ushers60PAGraph.JPG
The first was the weaker (ABV about 5.0%) and much less of it. Very sedate fermentation (under pitched?). The second started in 2 hours! And took half the time for a beer of ABV about 6.5%.

Okay, the second wasn't "Ringwood Ale" yeast, it was "Edinburgh Ale" (White Labs) and accidentally fermented 2-3°C warmer (initially), but I can't believe the difference is entirely down to this.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: wyeast 1187 ringwood

Post by PeeBee » Mon May 18, 2020 2:32 pm

P.S. I was using a pack well past its best-before date for the second fermentation. I'm using the multi-step approach simply because I haven't the patience to try anything better. For yeast packs past their date I can't recommend my technique. Try "McMullen's" published earlier in the thread.

One of the things I gleaned researching this is old packs of liquid yeast might well have high quantities of dead yeast subjected to "autolysis". And that may taste.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

McMullan

Re: wyeast 1187 ringwood

Post by McMullan » Mon May 18, 2020 2:35 pm

Good grief! One or two confounding factors swept under that 'ground-breaking research'. You might be better off using a microscope rather than gravity readings. How you could even dare to publicly draw any conclusions is thoroughly disturbing, frankly. There's quite an informative expression that comes to mind when considering your naive experimental design. It's called 'shit in, shit out'.

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Re: wyeast 1187 ringwood

Post by PeeBee » Mon May 18, 2020 2:48 pm

:D
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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