Brewing alcohol free

Share your experiences of using brewing yeast.
Post Reply
User avatar
john luc
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:04 pm

Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by john luc » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:29 am

Is there a difference between Safbrew S33 and fermentis S33.
Deos miscendarum discipule
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie

User avatar
PeeBee
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:50 pm
Location: North Wales

Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by PeeBee » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:44 am

john luc wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:24 pm
In the document I posted the test brew with ludwigii used 70% pale malt and 30% wheat and this was the mash schedule ,
mashing:
37°C for 20 min;
44°C for 20 min;
48°C for 20 min;
52°C for 30 min;
68°C for 30 min;
and 78°C for 10 min at a ramping rate of 1.0°C/min.
An earlier rambling of mine described why "I'm not convinced" about S. Lugwigii, although digging deeper I could get an idea why S. Lugwigii would work.

The mash schedule you've posted from the document about S. Lugwigii is a reason I commented that I "don't agree with some of what he does" in that article, and here's why:

The schedule is designed for full-scale brews with under modified malt, often protein rich and exotic carbohydrate-rich malts. British and Irish malts (and, apart from some notable exceptions*, malt from the rest of the world) are well modified and the complex mash schedules aren't necessary because the maltsters have performed the same tasks before you get your hands on it. But worse; the complex mash schedule purposely destroys the elements I had tried to preserve in my previous low-alcohol attempts. Such as beta-glucans (a carbohydrate gum), "maltotriose" (and other dextrins) and, as has been the case with cold mashing, proteins. And the complex mash schedule purposely creates maximum maltose (for some reason - it will skew sweetness and S. Lugwigii won't touch it). I do know that the article is all about creating ordinary beer fermented with S. Lugwigii to get fermentation products similar to ordinary beer and use industrial processes to deal with the alcohol (much lower alcohol but still excessive**; though it ignores the excess maltose, except to point out the susceptibility to "bad" microbes).

Put like that, I've probably made a good argument to ignore the tricks with S. Lugwigii? Perhaps, but what that document has done is force me to improve my understanding of what I can do. So I believe that article to have been extremely valuable, just not in the way the author intended (not that the article was intended for home-brewers anyway).

Cheers :beer:

* Whatever they are - don't ask me, but I am aware such exceptions exist.
** If I was to use S. Lugwigii I'd still aim for a low-alcohol recipe to avoid the "industrial processes", but more ingredients could be used (more flavour!) because any extra maltose would not be fermented, though there remains some doubt as to what the excess maltose would do.

User avatar
PeeBee
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:50 pm
Location: North Wales

Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by PeeBee » Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:11 am

john luc wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:29 am
Is there a difference between Safbrew S33 and fermentis S33.
Na. There's Safbrew, Safale, Saflager …

I believe (but don't know if it's true) that S-33 is an "old" yeast. Like the Whitbread strain - not the dry strain - like Wyeast 1099. So doesn't ferment "maltotriose". Whereas newer yeasts do, and they will in turn be displaced by the "diastaticus" variants in time, and will ferment ever drier beers (by munching through ever more complex carbohydrates).

(Predictions according to well known mentally deficient forumite "PeeBee" - All rights reserved, 2019 :? ).

Actually … I think some of the Scottish strains came under "old", and many of the Belgium strains are derived from Scottish bottles of Wee Heavy, hence Belgium yeasts might make a good replacement for S-33. Amazing what fantasies you can derive from a limited knowledge! Generally I now look for strains having an attenuation of <70% to hint at lack of maltotriose fermentability.

User avatar
john luc
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:04 pm

Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by john luc » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:12 am

On the search for yeast that eat maltose and not maltotriose you can look at Windsor. On the spec sheet for this yeast it states that it cannot deal with maltotriose.
My other research suggests PH 5.5 in the mash favours alpha more than Beta amylase without compromising the wort.
Deos miscendarum discipule
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie

User avatar
PeeBee
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:50 pm
Location: North Wales

Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by PeeBee » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:14 pm

john luc wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:12 am
On the search for yeast that eat maltose and not maltotriose you can look at Windsor. On the spec sheet for this yeast it states that it cannot deal with maltotriose.
My other research suggests PH 5.5 in the mash favours alpha more than Beta amylase without compromising the wort.
Aye, I should try Windsor (it did used to be my favourite for Mild Ale and the like). And a mash pH of 5.5 seems a good idea for me as I'm currently experiencing problems getting anything lower than 5.4 anyhow (last year I found it quite impossible to get higher than 5.1 - I blame it on all them Welsh sheep).

But the big step I made recently was digging up this little article: https://byo.com/mr-wizard/dextrin-malts/.

I'd resorted to quite rude tactics to try to get someone to tell me that dextrin malt wasn't the waste of time I was proclaiming. But taking it further still; the article seems to suggest my technique of "preserving" the dextrins in crystal malt by mashing it at 74C (especially when cold mashing) was a waste of time 'cos the dextrin is already immune to the action of beta-amylase (the dextrin has been subjected to "Maillard reaction").

User avatar
PeeBee
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:50 pm
Location: North Wales

Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by PeeBee » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:42 pm

Here's a useful snippet (applies to the Beersmith program, I have no idea if other recipe builders are better or, more likely perhaps, worse than Beersmith).

When using Beersmith to construct low-alcohol brews, the wort "fermentability" calculations fall-over when the mash temperature is greater than 71C. Beersmith will then just carry on using the results for 71C if mash is higher, which could be misleading (not tried it yet, but perhaps it is predicting a fermentable wort mashed at 80C?). Better if choosing such a high mash temperature forced the program to predict zero fermentability. Better still; the program could cope with temperatures of 76C or more (after which the mash will result in zero fermentability).

Might explain some of the difficulties I'm having predicting outcomes (and subsequently pursuing "crystal malts" as the culprit).

On the path to learning this I picked up that Wells Bombadier (warning; unsubstantiated rumour propagation) is mashed at a "beta-amylase" trashing temperature and the fermentables come from invert sugar. Might provide ideas for future low-alcohol concoctions?

User avatar
PeeBee
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:50 pm
Location: North Wales

Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by PeeBee » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:41 pm

To add a bit of substance to the claim that Well's Bombardier is mashed at 74C I listened to the Jamil Show's interview with the brewer there (2012) - http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/post1676/. Sure enough, they do mash at 74C, use loads of sugar and still get FG in the 1.011-12 range.

Guess I'll need to try harder to come up with a more extreme mashing schedule for low-alcohol beers :evil: .

User avatar
john luc
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:04 pm

Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by john luc » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:49 pm

Had a listen to that podcast and after the back slapping and shite talk you get to 30 minutes where he starts to chat about their mashing schedule. He mash @ 52C for 40 minutes and then quickly brings it up to 74C for 60 minutes. Sparge @78C. I'd say the 52C is for the limit dextrinase phase first to debranch
Deos miscendarum discipule
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie

User avatar
PeeBee
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:50 pm
Location: North Wales

Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by PeeBee » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:54 pm

I'd not paid much attention to that 52C step, thinking it to be some sort of "protein rest" to better make the beer handle cold "keg" like environments. You can tell I don't really have much respect for "Well's Bombardier" beer. And as you are failing in your Blarney Stone smooching duties, I turned to Google: tap, tap, tap, "limit dextrinase", tap, tap … Whoa! That's intriguing stuff, but probably out of scope for "low-alcohol" worts. I can see why it might be done for full-strength beers though (so "debranching" isn't about tree surgery … ).

User avatar
PeeBee
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:50 pm
Location: North Wales

Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by PeeBee » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:56 am

ingo wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:23 am
… One thing I've been looking for but have not found yet is what is the sugar composition of a cold extracted wort. …
Doesn't go down to "cold" but does go down to 45C. May be not what you're looking for (and you may have it?), but I do know you like this sort of stuff and I'm finding it pretty interesting too.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Fer ... _226691242

Kingfisher4
Piss Artist
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:03 pm
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by Kingfisher4 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:30 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:56 am
ingo wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:23 am
… One thing I've been looking for but have not found yet is what is the sugar composition of a cold extracted wort. …
Doesn't go down to "cold" but does go down to 45C. May be not what you're looking for (and you may have it?), but I do know you like this sort of stuff and I'm finding it pretty interesting too.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Fer ... _226691242
From the first graph, have you upped the mash temperature from the 74 you suggested in April to 75 or 76, with your older hot short mash no sparge technique?

It seems logical from the dramatic curves in the right direction ( for low ABV beers) with S-33 to maximise proportions of relatively unfermentable polysaccharides?

User avatar
PeeBee
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:50 pm
Location: North Wales

Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by PeeBee » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:42 pm

Kingfisher4 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:30 pm
From the first graph, have you upped the mash temperature from the 74 you suggested in April to 75 or 76, with your older hot short mash no sparge technique?

It seems logical from the dramatic curves in the right direction ( for low ABV beers) with S-33 to maximise proportions of relatively unfermentable polysaccharides?
There you go, thinking I'm some sort of "saint" brewing low-alcohol beer. Well I'm not! And 40L of low-alcohol beer takes a while to get through.

But I am getting low so will kick off again after I've brewed these next few "alcoholic" beers. But the movements in those graphs from that article haven't been lost on me, and I will be mashing at 75-76C next time around (before Xmas I hope).

Meanwhile, here's a Tilt hydrometer graph from a "fully leaded" beer brewed earlier this year. You may have seen it in my "Tilt" thread. It dramatically shows the S-33 yeast running out of simple sugars and just being left with Maltotriose and other dextrins:
1877-3aii.JPG
1877-3aii.JPG (19.86 KiB) Viewed 510 times
Cheers!


(EDIT: Oops, I've already posted this graph earlier in the thread. Ah well … revision?).

Kingfisher4
Piss Artist
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:03 pm
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by Kingfisher4 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:28 am

Thanks PeeBee,
I will try the slightly hotter mash next time as well. I have the advantage of only 20-23 L batches, help drinking them and also plan to get round to another soon.
In addition to earlier posts, lessons so far mirror your comments. Wheat Malt in conjunction with Munich has been a good balance. I won’t be trying even small quantities of Special B again, It was overpowering. Small quantities of malted oats seemed to improve head retention and mouth feel in the last batch. Like you, I have been surprised that ageing these 1%-ish ABV beers improves them. A friend who has tried most of the low alcohol beers prefers them to any of the commercial varieties.

ingo
Steady Drinker
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by ingo » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:15 am

PeeBee wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:56 am
ingo wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:23 am
… One thing I've been looking for but have not found yet is what is the sugar composition of a cold extracted wort. …
Doesn't go down to "cold" but does go down to 45C. May be not what you're looking for (and you may have it?), but I do know you like this sort of stuff and I'm finding it pretty interesting too.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Fer ... _226691242
Thanks, do have that one, the book where it comes from that is, but somehow it never clicked. :) It shows what I expected, relative large portion of glucose decreasing during warm mashing. So extrapolating into the cold, we have relative more simple sugars. But it is certainly not conclusive.

(another graph is also interesting, it show the activity of limit-dextrinase over @65°C where many say that the enzyme denaturates fast so you'd have to mash in below 60°C. The graph shows that that is not the case.)

thanks,

Ingo

Post Reply