Brewing alcohol free

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clarets7
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Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by clarets7 » Wed May 22, 2019 5:32 pm

I can't find anything after his Take 2 blog. Maybe his brews didn't work out too well...

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PeeBee
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Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by PeeBee » Wed May 22, 2019 6:57 pm

clarets7 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 4:23 pm
Just found this

http://jonscrazybrews.blogspot.com/2017 ... shing.html
Well done digging that out. It sort of answers some of the questions I'd started to raise. But the blog does make some contradictions so I'll try and iron them out …

The term "non-enzymatic mash" is nonsense as the blog states, but it goes on to say that starch conversion doesn't occur at these cold temperatures, yet the blog also remarks how sweet the cold mashed wort was. I don't remember the Briess article mentioning a "normal" mash temperature step either?

Cold starch conversion does occur. Barley didn't evolve these processes so we can make beer! The process mobilizes sugars from the starch supply so it can grow and survive. We only figured that by adding heat we could accelerate these processes and by pre-processing the grain (germinating and malting) the enzymes (not that they knew of such things) can be given access to the grain's starch.

Adding heat will cause enzymes (made of protein) to get faster and faster to a point where the protein unravels and become ineffective. Some will ravel back up, and become effective again, as it cools, but when starting to unravel at temperatures of 60-70C more likely the unravelling is permanent and the protein has "denatured". We mash at temperatures where we get the fastest and most complete conversion before the enzyme completely denatures. Hence the "all-night" mashers don't produce worts that are all maltose and no dextrins; the conversions were done after 1 or 2 hours after which the majority of enzymes were trashed.

With this in mind:

I'm planning a cold mash of malt (possibly x4 what I would have used to produce a sub-1% ABV beer) before straining off those grains (and perhaps reusing them as an adjunct in another brew). Raising the "wort" up to mashing temperature (probably about 74C so any starch is converted to dextrins and not much maltose) then add the crystal/caramel malts and perhaps colouring malt (chocolate, black, roast) for a 20 minute steep. Then strain again before boiling for 30 minutes and adding steep hops (80-85C) for IBUs as discussed earlier.

There's some scary hopping regimes emerging in recent posts: I've already discovered that the BU/GU ratio is a good guide for low-alcohol brewing, a guide not to be exceeded even when the resulting beer is coming out at sub-10IBU. But if people want to disregard this to produce sub-1% ABV beers with 10+ IBUs, so be it. I think my notes claimed hop flavour in these over-hopped sub-1% ABV beers was like "dry autumn leaves", or "corrugated cardboard" if I wanted to be less poetic.
Last edited by PeeBee on Wed May 22, 2019 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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domejunky
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Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by domejunky » Wed May 22, 2019 7:20 pm

john luc wrote:
domejunky wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:14 pm
Have you gleaned this from the Briess blog post? I haven't found any reference to burnt debris - I might be tasting it though...
I gleamed this idea from 2 idiots on YouTube who did a cold mash and did not cleared the gunk from the wort. They produced 1 crap beer that was burnt and declared this a failure. #-o
Found it - he seemed very confused. You have a process that is going to produce a lot of body, so you add loads of malt to increase the body...

think I had the same problem with scorched wort - probably what took out my element. The mash is a lot looser, doesn't provide much filtering at all.

A lot of it settles just through gravity, maybe I'll lauter into a bucket, let it sit while I do a hot mash

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Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by f00b4r » Wed May 22, 2019 8:23 pm

PeeBee wrote:Adding heat will cause enzymes (made of protein) to get faster and faster to a point where the protein unravels and become ineffective. Some will ravel back up, and become effective again, as it cools, but when starting to unravel at temperatures of 60-70C more likely the unravelling is permanent and the protein has "denatured". We mash at temperatures where we get the fastest and most complete conversion before the enzyme completely denatures.
Do a search for how to unboil an egg ;)

I was looking at the cold mash technique late last year and will have to dig out some links I found as there were a few people that have used it successfully.


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Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by Kingfisher4 » Thu May 23, 2019 9:26 am

Fascinating possibilities.

I may just be ignorant, but a couple of thoughts / questions occur re the potential for experimenting with the cold technique too. Is there any good reason 10 degree C would be better than 20 say?? One of the linked explanations above talks about sub gelatinisation temp for malt (58-62 degrees from a quick Google).

An "agitated steep" at 20 would be easier in the Grainfather than 10 degrees; assuming ambient temp is sub 20 degrees where mashing and simplistically the slightly higher temp would just speed extraction up a little but not alter the residual compounds in the cold wort ( I may be totally missing some critical difference between these temperatures of course).

What filtering process would be needed if only the cold technique is used, pre boil to avoid "burning" the wort?

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john luc
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Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by john luc » Thu May 23, 2019 10:26 am

I mention 10C as a reference start for this discussion as we are trying to produce low alcohol beer and so as much control over the A and B amylase that are needed to convert starch.
Diastatic Enzymes: Both α and β amylase are highly soluble in cool water, in fact the ASBC method for extraction of diastatic enzymes and α amylase are both conducted at 20°C.2Proteins: Cold mashing of a traditional amber ale recipe brewed at Briess showed a 65% recovery rate of nitrogen (as protein) as compared to a typical step mash process.β-Gulcans: β-Gulcans in wort are derived from enzymatic degradation of hemi-cellulose during mashing, and are not present in wort until starch gelatinization temperature
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PeeBee
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Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by PeeBee » Thu May 23, 2019 10:47 am

Kingfisher4 wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 9:26 am
Fascinating possibilities.

I may just be ignorant, but a couple of thoughts / questions occur re the potential for experimenting with the cold technique too. Is there any good reason 10 degree C would be better than 20 say?? …
If I remember my school days (an exceptional achievement in its own right!) rates of (any) reaction about doubles with every 10C. So my guess is 10C was chosen as the lowest practical temperature to get the biggest effect. So, if I'm right, 20C will still create a low conversion effect but just not as big (i.e. the effects on "residual compounds in the cold wort" will be significant, but perhaps okay if not trying to beat down the OG too much).

But I think a Grainfather would certainly count as "agitation" so you only need hold the temperature (or there abouts) for an hour?

("john luc" has just filled in with a take along the same lines.).

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Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by Kingfisher4 » Thu May 23, 2019 11:46 am

Thank you both, confirms my line of thinking. I read the quote in the original article and noticed the industry standard was at 20°. Don’t have access to look up the cited paper.

One of the joys of the couple of brews undertaken already was the relative ease and rapid process, from start to finish. Happy to introduce more complexity and time if feedback suggests this is a worthwhile way forward with the cold mash techniques.

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Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by Jim » Thu May 23, 2019 1:06 pm

Well I never thought when I started this forum that there'd ever be a thread on it about no-alcohol brewing! :lol:

It's a good move though - I can't remember how many times I've avoided drinking beer because I had to drive later or had something important to do early the next morning. Plus there's the health benefits, especially for the more ...er... mature of us. :)
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john luc
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Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by john luc » Thu May 23, 2019 1:30 pm

I know what you mean. T'is an age thing or are we just on a journey :D
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Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by Kingfisher4 » Thu May 23, 2019 2:30 pm

Many diverse motivations for this unusual thread, I’m sure.

If I can brew low ABV beer that is anything like as good as my first attempts over the last year with standard beer in various styles, I will be very very happy. Just extends the choices!

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Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by PeeBee » Thu May 23, 2019 3:31 pm

Jim wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 1:06 pm
Well I never thought when I started this forum that there'd ever be a thread on it about no-alcohol brewing! :lol:
Don't worry. Not much has changed. A lot of us would be drinking every day but we're under attack from doctors, etc, pointing out this will send us to an early grave. So we delude ourselves by continuing brewing just as much beer, but some "special" stuff for "abstention days". And as an example of the depth of this delusion, the person (who can remain nameless) who kicked this thread off titled it "brewing alcohol free". :whistle:

Actually I've just noticed this thread is in the "yeast" forum. Here is one deluded participant who's spent so much time in this thread twisting the idea of beer with no alcohol in it, he's forgotten what the OP was about.

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john luc
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Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by john luc » Sat May 25, 2019 11:03 am

PeeBee wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 6:57 pm
With this in mind:

I'm planning a cold mash of malt (possibly x4 what I would have used to produce a sub-1% ABV beer) before straining off those grains (and perhaps reusing them as an adjunct in another brew). Raising the "wort" up to mashing temperature (probably about 74C so any starch is converted to dextrins and not much maltose) then add the crystal/caramel malts and perhaps colouring malt (chocolate, black, roast) for a 20 minute steep. Then strain again before boiling for 30 minutes and adding steep hops (80-85C) for IBUs as discussed earlier.

There's some scary hopping regimes emerging in recent posts: I've already discovered that the BU/GU ratio is a good guide for low-alcohol brewing, a guide not to be exceeded even when the resulting beer is coming out at sub-10IBU. But if people want to disregard this to produce sub-1% ABV beers with 10+ IBUs, so be it. I think my notes claimed hop flavour in these over-hopped sub-1% ABV beers was like "dry autumn leaves", or "corrugated cardboard" if I wanted to be less poetic.
Just to follow up on your suggestion here,would you plan to change the PH of this cold mash to only favour Alpha amylase given that Alpha PH is best at 6.7 to 7.0 where Beta Amylase is 4.0 to 5.0 PH :-k Also given that Alpha is hooked on Calcium a good dose of that is needed too.
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PeeBee
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Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by PeeBee » Sat May 25, 2019 3:45 pm

john luc wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 11:03 am
PeeBee wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 6:57 pm
With this in mind: …
Just to follow up on your suggestion here,would you plan to change the PH of this cold mash to only favour Alpha amylase …
Let me check my list of things I must try; I think it's going to be quite low down … (nope, not here. Next page? … na, lower … ). You know what, I haven't even considered it. You'll cheer up folk considering this who struggle with alkaline water. I have treated my water for these low-alcohol brews in the past, generally using the very "lightly" treated profiles in Bru'n Water (and Beersmith?) like "yellow, full" - the "full" profiles to give my taste-buds a chance with these very light beers, and any recommended water profile is going to shift my calcium levels up (there's not much of anything in my water). Coincidentally, bumping up the calcium and picking higher pH profiles ("full") fits in with your suggestions.

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Re: Brewing alcohol free

Post by Robwalkeragain » Sat May 25, 2019 5:01 pm

Jim wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 1:06 pm
Well I never thought when I started this forum that there'd ever be a thread on it about no-alcohol brewing! :lol:

It's a good move though - I can't remember how many times I've avoided drinking beer because I had to drive later or had something important to do early the next morning. Plus there's the health benefits, especially for the more ...er... mature of us. :)
Honestly with the better options available like Big Drop it’s feeling less and less like you’re missing out drinking alcohol free beer, there’s certainly a growing demographic that enjoy the social side of drinking without the after effects!

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