Wyeast 1469 lag?

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clarets7
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Wyeast 1469 lag?

Post by clarets7 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:36 am

Hi, made a best bitter yesterday, pitched a sachet of Wyeast 1469 at 2pm into 19L of 1047 wort at 20C. This morning, 7am, was expecting to see some activity, nothing. Gave it a good stir, 4 hours later still nothing. What's the normal lag? I did smack the pack but was probably only left an hour at 20C. Date of manufacture was mid July 2020. This is only the second time I've used wet yeast.

Should I be thinking of adding a pack of dry as a backup?
Last edited by clarets7 on Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ben034
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Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?

Post by ben034 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:17 pm

Any sign of Krausen on top if you open the fermenter? When you say no activity, do you just mean on the airlock? I would expect to see activity within 24 hours or so but depends on a number of factors including initial cell count. Would certainly recommend a starter next time for wet yeast as you don't know how it was stored beforehand. I would personally give it longer before considering further yeast additions.

clarets7
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Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?

Post by clarets7 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:24 pm

No Krausen, no visible bubbles in wort (no air lock). Yeast shoud have been fine, from the Malt Miller. Arrived with ice pack, been in fridge ever since. I'll wait till this evening before I take any other measures.

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Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?

Post by orlando » Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:44 pm

Don't panic lag times can sometimes happen for up to 24 hours, I've had longer and it has still made good Beer. The yeast is taking up oxygen during the lag phase and this can last 24 hours.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Riders On The Storm
Conditioning: He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother (Wee Heavy) till December.
Drinking: Kings & Queens (Eldridge Pope Royal Oak clone), Gyle brewed Little Red Ruth(ster) & Red(Ruth)Rain 1867 recipe, From Russia With Love (RIS)

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clarets7
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Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?

Post by clarets7 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:23 am

'patience is a virtue' - thanks ben and orlando, I held off pitching any dry yeast last night and was rewarded this morning with a good 3cm of very healthy looking krausen. One to remember for the future!

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Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?

Post by ben034 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:34 am

Glad to hear. It'll be worth the wait. Big fan of 1469 yeast. It's relatively lively so fit a blow off if your fermenter is full.

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Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?

Post by Jocky » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:48 am

For liquid yeast it's usually worth doing a starter as you don't know how carefully it's been handled in getting to you. Making a starter a few days before allows you to be certain you've got active healthy yeast and you've no uncertainty about if it's going to work.

With good aeration or even using pure oxygen you can get a fermentation climbing out of the fermenter in hours.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?

Post by PeeBee » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:18 am

I'm planning to use 1469 yeast later this year. It'll only be the second time I've used it. The first time …
ben034 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:34 am
… Big fan of 1469 yeast. It's relatively lively so fit a blow off if your fermenter is full.
… in several years of using liquid yeast, 1469 is the only yeast I've had to fit a "blow off" tube. And the fermenter has a 70L capacity and the batch was only 45L. I.e. the fermenter doesn't have to be full for this yeast to express it's "lively" nature!

Unlike in the OP, I will use a starter as I do not trust "smack packs" (perhaps the author of the OP doesn't trust "smack packs" now?). Which brings me to another question that no-one can ever answer in the previous times I've asked it.

If creating a starter and using one of the calculators and a stir-plate (a stir plate introduces loads of oxygen) …
orlando wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:44 pm
… The yeast is taking up oxygen during the lag phase and this can last 24 hours.
… is there any need to introduce oxygen into the wort if the starter is supposed to have all the cells needed to ferment the wort and oxygen is only needed to create more cells which it shouldn't need (yeast will also stash oxygen for creating cells which is why you can get away with no wort aeration using dried yeast in worts less than SG1.050)?


Good to hear "Clarets7" has got a healthy ferment now; and hopefully some healthy beer in a little while.
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Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?

Post by vacant » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:56 am

PeeBee wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:18 am
… is there any need to introduce oxygen into the wort if the starter is supposed to have all the cells needed to ferment the wort and oxygen is only needed to create more cells which it shouldn't need (yeast will also stash oxygen for creating cells which is why you can get away with no wort aeration using dried yeast in worts less than SG1.050)?
I'm also a big fan of this yeast.

As I understand it, dried yeast comes with all componds needed for growth but stepped up yeast have to manufacture these compounds and Oxygen is needed to do this.
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Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?

Post by PeeBee » Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:11 pm

vacant wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:56 am
… As I understand it, dried yeast comes with all componds needed for growth but stepped up yeast have to manufacture these compounds and Oxygen is needed to do this.
That's right. As I understand it those compounds are what is needed to create more cells (cell membranes). And those compounds (sterols?) are created with oxygen. Which brings me back to my original question.
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orlando
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Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?

Post by orlando » Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:17 pm

vacant wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:56 am
PeeBee wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:18 am
… is there any need to introduce oxygen into the wort if the starter is supposed to have all the cells needed to ferment the wort and oxygen is only needed to create more cells which it shouldn't need (yeast will also stash oxygen for creating cells which is why you can get away with no wort aeration using dried yeast in worts less than SG1.050)?
I'm also a big fan of this yeast.

As I understand it, dried yeast comes with all componds needed for growth but stepped up yeast have to manufacture these compounds and Oxygen is needed to do this.
For dried yeast that's true. For liquid it depends on who you ask. There are claims that "wet" yeast only need oxygen for building their cell walls ready for dormancy. They don't actually need it for respiration in the lag phase.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Riders On The Storm
Conditioning: He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother (Wee Heavy) till December.
Drinking: Kings & Queens (Eldridge Pope Royal Oak clone), Gyle brewed Little Red Ruth(ster) & Red(Ruth)Rain 1867 recipe, From Russia With Love (RIS)

Up Next: Stout! In The Name Of Love, Elusive Butterfly
Planning: Autumn drinking Beer

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Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?

Post by Jocky » Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:27 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:18 am
If creating a starter and using one of the calculators and a stir-plate (a stir plate introduces loads of oxygen) …
orlando wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:44 pm
… The yeast is taking up oxygen during the lag phase and this can last 24 hours.
… is there any need to introduce oxygen into the wort if the starter is supposed to have all the cells needed to ferment the wort and oxygen is only needed to create more cells which it shouldn't need (yeast will also stash oxygen for creating cells which is why you can get away with no wort aeration using dried yeast in worts less than SG1.050)?
My laymans understanding is this:

When you add yeast to wort it will first take up all the oxygen it can to synthesise sterols, and then replicate up to either a maximum cell density or until the sterols required for replication are exhausted. If they run out of sterols before getting to the maximum cell density then you get 'unhealthy' yeast cells that either spill out undesirable compounds or go dormant/die before they complete fermentation fully.

The number of cells from a starter is nowhere near the maximum cell density for your full batch, so growth is going to happen, so getting oxygen to the cells is important to fuel that.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?

Post by Jocky » Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:39 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:18 am
I'm planning to use 1469 yeast later this year. It'll only be the second time I've used it. The first time …
ben034 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:34 am
… Big fan of 1469 yeast. It's relatively lively so fit a blow off if your fermenter is full.
… in several years of using liquid yeast, 1469 is the only yeast I've had to fit a "blow off" tube. And the fermenter has a 70L capacity and the batch was only 45L. I.e. the fermenter doesn't have to be full for this yeast to express it's "lively" nature!
A side tip - I use 'top cropping' yeasts like the German weissbier yeasts (WLP300/WLP380/Wyeast 3068) and Belgian Wit (Wyeast 3944) quite regularly.

I find that leaving the lid off the fermenter entirely from the point that you have a full covering of krausen until it peaks will stop it from going too crazy. For a 21 litre ferment I can get away with only 4/5 litres headspace instead of 12 or more by doing this.

Obviously you've got to make sure that your fermenter is not going to have anything drop/jump/fly into it while doing that. Mine is in a fridge that has been sanitised.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?

Post by PeeBee » Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:20 pm

orlando wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:17 pm
... For liquid it depends on who you ask. There are claims that "wet" yeast only need oxygen for building their cell walls ready for dormancy. They don't actually need it for respiration in the lag phase.
Thanks for that link. I couldn't get a straight "yah or nay" to my question with it but it eventually says:
I do not believe that brewers necessarily need to aerate their worts at all if the pitching yeast comes from a fresh starter culture that itself has been well-aerated during growth and stepped up to produce a sufficient number of healthy cells, or if a large culture is repitched from a very recent (aerated) batch. Wort aeration is clearly beneficial, however, if you are unable to obtain the optimal pitching rate (about 1 million active cells per mL per degree Plato, or about 5 to 10 million active cells per mL for typical worts) — and many brewers cannot.
This is what I'm suggesting, but unfortunately it stresses that it is only what the author personally thinks ("I do not believe..." etc.) and not what might be reality. But also says "Many brewers have successfully made decent beer without aerating their worts" so it looks like "suck it and see" will be a low-risk way forward.

Bearing what the author has to say in "The Aeration 'Default'".

What answers my question best is when the author says:
Aerating your wort may solve some fermentation problems, but remember that if you’re pitching a fresh, healthy yeast culture of the optimal size, aeration is usually not essential and may even be undesirable in certain cases. Most important, the level of dissolved oxygen necessary in wort to produce the best beer depends on the strain of yeast being used, its viability, the pitching rate, and the style of beer being made.
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Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?

Post by PeeBee » Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:50 pm

Jocky wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:27 pm
My laymans understanding is this:

When you add yeast to wort it will first take up all the oxygen it can to synthesise sterols, and then replicate up to either a maximum cell density or until the sterols required for replication are exhausted. If they run out of sterols before getting to the maximum cell density then you get 'unhealthy' yeast cells that either spill out undesirable compounds or go dormant/die before they complete fermentation fully.

The number of cells from a starter is nowhere near the maximum cell density for your full batch, so growth is going to happen, so getting oxygen to the cells is important to fuel that.
That is a consideration. The "optimum cell density" (as hopefully supplied by the starter) wont stop the yeast attempting to grow the "maximum cell density" once in the fermenter. And the presence of bad cells isn't going to be good. Continued (even if not required) growth as I found with my abortive attempt to keep the fermenting wort cool by recirculating it through the product coils of a shelf cooler. The fermenter and cooler were linked with silicon hose. I wasn't aware then how oxygen porous silicon hose was and the yeast used the rich oxygen source to build more and more cells until the pipes all clogged up!

So I guess there is going to be a happy medium. But I'll start with zero aeration of the wort.
"People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

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