Wyeast 1469 lag?
-
- Piss Artist
- Posts: 231
- Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:56 am
- Location: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire
Wyeast 1469 lag?
Hi, made a best bitter yesterday, pitched a sachet of Wyeast 1469 at 2pm into 19L of 1047 wort at 20C. This morning, 7am, was expecting to see some activity, nothing. Gave it a good stir, 4 hours later still nothing. What's the normal lag? I did smack the pack but was probably only left an hour at 20C. Date of manufacture was mid July 2020. This is only the second time I've used wet yeast.
Should I be thinking of adding a pack of dry as a backup?
Should I be thinking of adding a pack of dry as a backup?
Last edited by clarets7 on Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The paradise of the rich is made out of the hell of the poor" - Victor Hugo
Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?
Any sign of Krausen on top if you open the fermenter? When you say no activity, do you just mean on the airlock? I would expect to see activity within 24 hours or so but depends on a number of factors including initial cell count. Would certainly recommend a starter next time for wet yeast as you don't know how it was stored beforehand. I would personally give it longer before considering further yeast additions.
-
- Piss Artist
- Posts: 231
- Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:56 am
- Location: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire
Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?
No Krausen, no visible bubbles in wort (no air lock). Yeast shoud have been fine, from the Malt Miller. Arrived with ice pack, been in fridge ever since. I'll wait till this evening before I take any other measures.
"The paradise of the rich is made out of the hell of the poor" - Victor Hugo
- orlando
- So far gone I'm on the way back again!
- Posts: 7197
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
- Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt
Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?
Don't panic lag times can sometimes happen for up to 24 hours, I've had longer and it has still made good Beer. The yeast is taking up oxygen during the lag phase and this can last 24 hours.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"
Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,
Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer
Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,
Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer
-
- Piss Artist
- Posts: 231
- Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:56 am
- Location: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire
Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?
'patience is a virtue' - thanks ben and orlando, I held off pitching any dry yeast last night and was rewarded this morning with a good 3cm of very healthy looking krausen. One to remember for the future!
"The paradise of the rich is made out of the hell of the poor" - Victor Hugo
Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?
Glad to hear. It'll be worth the wait. Big fan of 1469 yeast. It's relatively lively so fit a blow off if your fermenter is full.
- Jocky
- Even further under the Table
- Posts: 2738
- Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:50 pm
- Location: Epsom, Surrey, UK
Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?
For liquid yeast it's usually worth doing a starter as you don't know how carefully it's been handled in getting to you. Making a starter a few days before allows you to be certain you've got active healthy yeast and you've no uncertainty about if it's going to work.
With good aeration or even using pure oxygen you can get a fermentation climbing out of the fermenter in hours.
With good aeration or even using pure oxygen you can get a fermentation climbing out of the fermenter in hours.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.
Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?
I'm planning to use 1469 yeast later this year. It'll only be the second time I've used it. The first time …
Unlike in the OP, I will use a starter as I do not trust "smack packs" (perhaps the author of the OP doesn't trust "smack packs" now?). Which brings me to another question that no-one can ever answer in the previous times I've asked it.
If creating a starter and using one of the calculators and a stir-plate (a stir plate introduces loads of oxygen) …
Good to hear "Clarets7" has got a healthy ferment now; and hopefully some healthy beer in a little while.
… in several years of using liquid yeast, 1469 is the only yeast I've had to fit a "blow off" tube. And the fermenter has a 70L capacity and the batch was only 45L. I.e. the fermenter doesn't have to be full for this yeast to express it's "lively" nature!
Unlike in the OP, I will use a starter as I do not trust "smack packs" (perhaps the author of the OP doesn't trust "smack packs" now?). Which brings me to another question that no-one can ever answer in the previous times I've asked it.
If creating a starter and using one of the calculators and a stir-plate (a stir plate introduces loads of oxygen) …
… is there any need to introduce oxygen into the wort if the starter is supposed to have all the cells needed to ferment the wort and oxygen is only needed to create more cells which it shouldn't need (yeast will also stash oxygen for creating cells which is why you can get away with no wort aeration using dried yeast in worts less than SG1.050)?
Good to hear "Clarets7" has got a healthy ferment now; and hopefully some healthy beer in a little while.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?
I'm also a big fan of this yeast.PeeBee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:18 am… is there any need to introduce oxygen into the wort if the starter is supposed to have all the cells needed to ferment the wort and oxygen is only needed to create more cells which it shouldn't need (yeast will also stash oxygen for creating cells which is why you can get away with no wort aeration using dried yeast in worts less than SG1.050)?
As I understand it, dried yeast comes with all componds needed for growth but stepped up yeast have to manufacture these compounds and Oxygen is needed to do this.
I brew therefore I ... I .... forget
Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?
That's right. As I understand it those compounds are what is needed to create more cells (cell membranes). And those compounds (sterols?) are created with oxygen. Which brings me back to my original question.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
- orlando
- So far gone I'm on the way back again!
- Posts: 7197
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
- Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt
Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?
For dried yeast that's true. For liquid it depends on who you ask. There are claims that "wet" yeast only need oxygen for building their cell walls ready for dormancy. They don't actually need it for respiration in the lag phase.vacant wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:56 amI'm also a big fan of this yeast.PeeBee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:18 am… is there any need to introduce oxygen into the wort if the starter is supposed to have all the cells needed to ferment the wort and oxygen is only needed to create more cells which it shouldn't need (yeast will also stash oxygen for creating cells which is why you can get away with no wort aeration using dried yeast in worts less than SG1.050)?
As I understand it, dried yeast comes with all componds needed for growth but stepped up yeast have to manufacture these compounds and Oxygen is needed to do this.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"
Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,
Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer
Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,
Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer
- Jocky
- Even further under the Table
- Posts: 2738
- Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:50 pm
- Location: Epsom, Surrey, UK
Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?
My laymans understanding is this:PeeBee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:18 amIf creating a starter and using one of the calculators and a stir-plate (a stir plate introduces loads of oxygen) …… is there any need to introduce oxygen into the wort if the starter is supposed to have all the cells needed to ferment the wort and oxygen is only needed to create more cells which it shouldn't need (yeast will also stash oxygen for creating cells which is why you can get away with no wort aeration using dried yeast in worts less than SG1.050)?
When you add yeast to wort it will first take up all the oxygen it can to synthesise sterols, and then replicate up to either a maximum cell density or until the sterols required for replication are exhausted. If they run out of sterols before getting to the maximum cell density then you get 'unhealthy' yeast cells that either spill out undesirable compounds or go dormant/die before they complete fermentation fully.
The number of cells from a starter is nowhere near the maximum cell density for your full batch, so growth is going to happen, so getting oxygen to the cells is important to fuel that.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.
- Jocky
- Even further under the Table
- Posts: 2738
- Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:50 pm
- Location: Epsom, Surrey, UK
Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?
A side tip - I use 'top cropping' yeasts like the German weissbier yeasts (WLP300/WLP380/Wyeast 3068) and Belgian Wit (Wyeast 3944) quite regularly.PeeBee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:18 amI'm planning to use 1469 yeast later this year. It'll only be the second time I've used it. The first time …… in several years of using liquid yeast, 1469 is the only yeast I've had to fit a "blow off" tube. And the fermenter has a 70L capacity and the batch was only 45L. I.e. the fermenter doesn't have to be full for this yeast to express it's "lively" nature!
I find that leaving the lid off the fermenter entirely from the point that you have a full covering of krausen until it peaks will stop it from going too crazy. For a 21 litre ferment I can get away with only 4/5 litres headspace instead of 12 or more by doing this.
Obviously you've got to make sure that your fermenter is not going to have anything drop/jump/fly into it while doing that. Mine is in a fridge that has been sanitised.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.
Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?
Thanks for that link. I couldn't get a straight "yah or nay" to my question with it but it eventually says:orlando wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:17 pm... For liquid it depends on who you ask. There are claims that "wet" yeast only need oxygen for building their cell walls ready for dormancy. They don't actually need it for respiration in the lag phase.
This is what I'm suggesting, but unfortunately it stresses that it is only what the author personally thinks ("I do not believe..." etc.) and not what might be reality. But also says "Many brewers have successfully made decent beer without aerating their worts" so it looks like "suck it and see" will be a low-risk way forward.I do not believe that brewers necessarily need to aerate their worts at all if the pitching yeast comes from a fresh starter culture that itself has been well-aerated during growth and stepped up to produce a sufficient number of healthy cells, or if a large culture is repitched from a very recent (aerated) batch. Wort aeration is clearly beneficial, however, if you are unable to obtain the optimal pitching rate (about 1 million active cells per mL per degree Plato, or about 5 to 10 million active cells per mL for typical worts) — and many brewers cannot.
Bearing what the author has to say in "The Aeration 'Default'".
What answers my question best is when the author says:
Aerating your wort may solve some fermentation problems, but remember that if you’re pitching a fresh, healthy yeast culture of the optimal size, aeration is usually not essential and may even be undesirable in certain cases. Most important, the level of dissolved oxygen necessary in wort to produce the best beer depends on the strain of yeast being used, its viability, the pitching rate, and the style of beer being made.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Re: Wyeast 1469 lag?
That is a consideration. The "optimum cell density" (as hopefully supplied by the starter) wont stop the yeast attempting to grow the "maximum cell density" once in the fermenter. And the presence of bad cells isn't going to be good. Continued (even if not required) growth as I found with my abortive attempt to keep the fermenting wort cool by recirculating it through the product coils of a shelf cooler. The fermenter and cooler were linked with silicon hose. I wasn't aware then how oxygen porous silicon hose was and the yeast used the rich oxygen source to build more and more cells until the pipes all clogged up!Jocky wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:27 pmMy laymans understanding is this:
When you add yeast to wort it will first take up all the oxygen it can to synthesise sterols, and then replicate up to either a maximum cell density or until the sterols required for replication are exhausted. If they run out of sterols before getting to the maximum cell density then you get 'unhealthy' yeast cells that either spill out undesirable compounds or go dormant/die before they complete fermentation fully.
The number of cells from a starter is nowhere near the maximum cell density for your full batch, so growth is going to happen, so getting oxygen to the cells is important to fuel that.
So I guess there is going to be a happy medium. But I'll start with zero aeration of the wort.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing