Re-using yeast: floculation issue

[JonB]

Hi all,

I've got a "house" strain that started life as a Wyeast West Yorkshire smack pack about ~2-3 years ago and has been up to now a very reliable yeast.

However I have noticed in my last two brews a change in behaviour once bottled.

Normally this yeast drops out of suspension like a cut lift, and stays in the bottom of the bottle. It is still dropping out, and the first ~100ml is "pub clear." The yeast however then immediately jumps back into suspesnsion during the pouir and it becomes cloudy (it has never done this before). On the more heavily carbonated bottles it jumps straight back in as soon as the cap is popped (and unusually I've had the odd "gusher" recently).

I understand that yeast will mutate and deviate from the original strain over time (I remember reading something about only reusing yeast ~5x before dumping, but I'm way past that number with no issues until now...). Is there anything I can do to "re-train" it into sticking to the bottom of the bottle like it used to?

I'd quite like to keep this strain going rather than dump and re-buy, what would you suggest?

I should probably specify what kit I have access to:

• DIY stir-plate & 2L Erlenmeyer [sp?] flask

• 5l demijohns

• malt extraxt for making starters

• yeast nutrient

• No microscope

• No slants, etc.

I should also specify that aside from Irish Moss in the boil I use Zero finings in the brewing process (it normally drops clear enough on its own at the end of fermentation, and then finishes in the bottle with only a small amount of sediment...

[EDIT: Just seen the price of a new smack pack, **** me those have shot up! ~£14-16.00 posted depending on where you buy it from! Definitely want to salvage this strain if I can...]

[clarets7]

We need McMullen to come back and enlighten us

[charliemartin]

Do you have any bottles which contain yeast before the characteristics changed? You could re-cultivate it from a couple of them.

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[JonB]

I might do, will have to go digging in the garage and see what I can find...

Failing that is there anything else I can do?

[charliemartin]

Unless you can isolate single cells and grow from there I don't think there's much else you can do.

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[JonB]

I wouldn't have a clue where to start with that, so it sounds like that's it then.

I'm hoping there's a few bottles of porter or Imperial stout from last year kicking about I can revive it from then. Everything else I think is Belgian or Verdant IPA yeast...

[IPA]

The problem is probably related to your brewing process. There should be no visible yeast in the bottle. In fact you should be able to pour the complete contents into a glass and have a star bright drink. It will take a bit longer to brew this way and most people cannot be bothered. Interested ?

[JonB]

As long as it doesn't involve re-mortgaging my house to buy some magical fermentation system, glycol chiller and full keg setup that every brewing "influencer"/"expert" seems to insist you need to produce half-decent beer...

(Yes please, if you can please outline the process I will see if it's something I'm able to incorporate into how I bottle).

[clarets7]

The problem is probably related to your brewing process. There should be no visible yeast in the bottle. In fact you should be able to pour the complete contents into a glass and have a star bright drink. It will take a bit longer to brew this way and most people cannot be bothered. Interested ?

That begs the question though, have you done something different with the last two brews where you have had this problem? Also, have you noticed any difference in the fermentation and in the quality of the finished beer?

How do you collect the yeast for re-use, top cropping?

[IPA]

As long as it doesn't involve re-mortgaging my house to buy some magical fermentation system, glycol chiller and full keg setup that every brewing "influencer"/"expert" seems to insist you need to produce half-decent beer...

(Yes please, if you can please outline the process I will see if it's something I'm able to incorporate into how I bottle).

No great cost just more time. I will post how later today.

[JonB]

That begs the question though, have you done something different with the last two brews where you have had this problem? Also, have you noticed any difference in the fermentation and in the quality of the finished beer?

How do you collect the yeast for re-use, top cropping?

No change in process, I rack off the bottom using a tap above the yeast cake (having placed the fermentation bucket on the side the night before to allow any disturbed sediment to drop back down).

Primed each bottle and use a bottle wand to bring each bottle, cap and leave in a warm room for 2 weeks. There wasn't more sediment than normal in these batches either...

No difference in fermentation character or performance observed.

I collect yeast by draining what liquid I can out, then putting as much slurry as I can in a 1l mason jar. Once the yeast has dropped out of that I throw away the liquid and put as much of it in a jam jar as practical and store in the fridge.

[clarets7]

I've got a bottle of a Landlord clone in the garage, that was made with 1469. I doubt it will be any good though as it's been there nearly three years, forgotten about. I've been meaning to throw it away every time I see it this year but I might as well see if I can get any yeast from it.

I'm rubbish myself at looking after yeast, it's something I really want to improve on. I bought all the stuff to make slants 5 or 6 years ago (probably more actually) but never got round to it. I've more time on my hands now so will have to definitely have to look into it all again.

[IPA]

As long as it doesn't involve re-mortgaging my house to buy some magical fermentation system, glycol chiller and full keg setup that every brewing "influencer"/"expert" seems to insist you need to produce half-decent beer...

(Yes please, if you can please outline the process I will see if it's something I'm able to incorporate into how I bottle).

Here's how I do it.
Brew the beer and in the last 15 mins of the boil add Protofloc and BrewBrite in the recommended quantities.Always mix the BrewBrite with water before adding. Also crush the Protofloc.
Cool to 20°C and pitch your yeast
Leave to ferment until quarter gravity. Usually about seven days.
Transfer to a second FV, taking care to leave as much trub and yeast behind as possible,and leave until there are no visual signs of fermentation. Again about another seven days.
Then add gelatine finings. Soften the sheets of gelatine (2 per 23 litres of beer) in cold water then drain and dissolve them in a little boiling water.
reduce the temperature to 15°C and leave for another 2-3 days.
Transfer to another vessel add priming sugar dissolved in some boiling water. (2 grams per litre)
The bottle or keg.
The first bottle should be a PET bottle (even if you are kegging) so you can check carbonation by simply squeezing it every day
Follow this and you will be amazed at the result

[JonB]

That's not quite the process nightmare you had me thinking of.

The mid-fermentation transfer is something I'll definitely look at trying, as that also means any dry hops won't mix with the yeast cake (making collecting and reusing a pain in the derriere).

The gelatine I will probably leave, largely because there are a couple of vegans in the Homebrew Club I'm part of; in certain cases I'd consider using bentonite to force clarify though I know it is not as effective (but is vegan).

Other than that the process is something I will look into refining taking your points. My only concern would be oxidation from that many vessel transfers (one of the main reasons I ditched siphoning into a bottling bucket, with no appreciable loss in clarity or additional yeast in the bottles).

Have you noticed any oxidation issues with any of your more hoppy batches?

[IPA]

No oxidation issues.
I always transfer via the tap.
I have not used a conventional air lock in 10 years these are my FVs

https://braumarkt.com/Plastic-Fermenter ... nd-Airlock

I use a circular foam bung that replaces the supplied airlock. It is in essence a breathable filter that stays in place during transfers thereby lessening the chance of unwanted airborne bacteria entering the vessel. At the last minute I remove the lid whilst tilting the vessel to check that no trub is transferred.
I doubt that you will achieve the clarity I spoke about without using gelatine. The gelatine does not remain in the finished beer as it is firmly stuck to the bottom of the second FV along with the unwanted yeast. A much better idea is to not offer your beer to vegans. Brew two batches one using gelatine and the other without and show the vegans the visible difference.