Hi there,
Although I've done loads of AG brews, the only recipe I've ever done that wasn't beer was a ginger beer recipe I got off brewuk.
I like the look of dreadskins cider recipe:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16049&p=190829#p190829
I had a few newbie questions:
1) Do I need to boil the apples or could I peel them? I would assume bateria can live in the apple flesh.
2) Does the quality of the apple juice make a small or large difference to flavour? I was planning to use the cheapest lild apple juice which is still pretty expensive compared to grain.
3) Do I need to rack to a secondary? When brewing beer I don't bother with this, even when dry hopping. I'd rather not start now.
4) Is Young's cider yeast good to use? Some people seem to use ale yeasts as they don't ferement as dry. My ginger beer was stupidly dry.
5) I assume its like beer where it would benefit from sitting on yeast for a least a couple of sweets in the primary?
6) How long should I condition for? If I can control the fermentation temp to 19 degrees can I reduce the conditioning time?
7) If its in a sealed bucket in a brew fridge in a shed should I still be worrying about fruit flies what with the warmer weather? They sound well bad...
Cider questions
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oldbloke
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Re: Cider questions
Young's cider yeast is fine, it's my default, but I tried Munton's Gold once and was told the result was like champagne. Weird guy, that taster. A lot of the Yanks that do cider with real apples are into ale yeasts at the moment. They seem to work well. Champagne yeast is popular in some quarters. Some wine yeasts may give a slightly funky flavour (Gervin D), Young's All Purpose Red seems to give a fruitier finish.
I can't be arsed messing about with real apples.
Try, per gallon:
500ml Suma AJ concentrate (hippyfood shops) - bang on for acidity, great flavour
0.5 or 1 litre cheapo AJ (depending how strong you want it)
500ml cranberry
Good tsp powdered wine tannin
1 to 2 tsp artificial sweetener
Tsp nutrient
third to half a pack of yeast
Water to about 3.5l, top up to gallon on day5.
Let it run until it clears
Prime with a good tsp per 500ml
I can't be arsed messing about with real apples.
Try, per gallon:
500ml Suma AJ concentrate (hippyfood shops) - bang on for acidity, great flavour
0.5 or 1 litre cheapo AJ (depending how strong you want it)
500ml cranberry
Good tsp powdered wine tannin
1 to 2 tsp artificial sweetener
Tsp nutrient
third to half a pack of yeast
Water to about 3.5l, top up to gallon on day5.
Let it run until it clears
Prime with a good tsp per 500ml
Last edited by oldbloke on Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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oldbloke
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Re: Cider questions
1) Do I need to boil the apples or could I peel them? I would assume bateria can live in the apple flesh.
Don't bother with them. Messy, time consuming
2) Does the quality of the apple juice make a small or large difference to flavour? I was planning to use the cheapest lild apple juice which is still pretty expensive compared to grain.
It does, but not much. I've had good results with Lidl's cheapo. And Morrison's cheapo. Not as keen on Prince's, oddly. But Suma concentrate is the best (IMHO) - but a little more expensive
3) Do I need to rack to a secondary? When brewing beer I don't bother with this, even when dry hopping. I'd rather not start now.
No. Ferment until clear (cloudy juice is mostly made cloudy by industrial processes, don't bother) then bottle/keg
4) Is Young's cider yeast good to use? Some people seem to use ale yeasts as they don't ferement as dry. My ginger beer was stupidly dry.
They don't, it's true. I like dry, but I now add 1 or 2 tsp artificial sweetener per gallon. Morrison's seems to work and has maltodextrin which help with mouthfeel
5) I assume its like beer where it would benefit from sitting on yeast for a least a couple of sweets in the primary?
I bottle when it's cleared
6) How long should I condition for? If I can control the fermentation temp to 19 degrees can I reduce the conditioning time?
About the same as beer, for the fizz, but as long as you can stand it for the flavour
7) If its in a sealed bucket in a brew fridge in a shed should I still be worrying about fruit flies what with the warmer weather? They sound well bad...[/quote]
No more than you would with ale, really
Don't bother with them. Messy, time consuming
2) Does the quality of the apple juice make a small or large difference to flavour? I was planning to use the cheapest lild apple juice which is still pretty expensive compared to grain.
It does, but not much. I've had good results with Lidl's cheapo. And Morrison's cheapo. Not as keen on Prince's, oddly. But Suma concentrate is the best (IMHO) - but a little more expensive
3) Do I need to rack to a secondary? When brewing beer I don't bother with this, even when dry hopping. I'd rather not start now.
No. Ferment until clear (cloudy juice is mostly made cloudy by industrial processes, don't bother) then bottle/keg
4) Is Young's cider yeast good to use? Some people seem to use ale yeasts as they don't ferement as dry. My ginger beer was stupidly dry.
They don't, it's true. I like dry, but I now add 1 or 2 tsp artificial sweetener per gallon. Morrison's seems to work and has maltodextrin which help with mouthfeel
5) I assume its like beer where it would benefit from sitting on yeast for a least a couple of sweets in the primary?
I bottle when it's cleared
6) How long should I condition for? If I can control the fermentation temp to 19 degrees can I reduce the conditioning time?
About the same as beer, for the fizz, but as long as you can stand it for the flavour
7) If its in a sealed bucket in a brew fridge in a shed should I still be worrying about fruit flies what with the warmer weather? They sound well bad...[/quote]
No more than you would with ale, really
Re: Cider questions
1. Personally I don't bother with apples.
2. A selection of a few different types of cheap apple juice gives a bit of depth to the flavour. Boil a couple of tea bags with 1/2 Kg of sugar and some yeast nutrient. Add to 18L of juice and top up to 23L.
3. I brew for a couple of weeks, then crash cool for a week in the same bucket. Then rack to a bottling bucket.
4. I have used us05, white wine yeast, champagne yeast and the brew I put on yesterday was my first try with Young's cider yeast. I will let you know how it goes. Ale yeast and wine yeast work ok, but whatever you use it will ferment down to 1000 more or less. There are no dextrins like in wort to give you any body. The only problem I ever had was with champagne yeast; after it crash cooled the yeast stuck to the bottom of the bucket like a pancake. When I bottle conditioned there was no fizz, because there was no yeast. It all stayed in the FV.
5. It does seem to get better the longer you leave it, in the bottle or in bulk doesn't seem to matter.
6. I brew for 1-2 weeks. Cool for 1 week. Bottle and carbonate for 2 weeks. Drink! Hic!
7. If it's in a sealed bucket, in a sealed fridge, in a sealed shed, I would shrink wrap the shed, just to make sure. Little buggers!
The one thing I've been experimenting with is back sweetening. It always tastes way too dry for me straight out the fv, so I've been trying maltodextrin, glycerol, sweetex etc. all in varying ratios, but they all taste a bit sickly to me. This next brew however I am going to try pasteurising, which I am quite excited about. Basically you brew it out, until 1000ish, then crash cool etc. as normal. Before bottling, you add enough sugar or apple juice to the bulk batch (after racking off the yeast), so it tastes just right, then add your 140g of sugar or whatever amount you use for bottle conditioning on top of this. Also fill 2 or 3 PET bottles when bottling. After 7-10 days, when these plastic bottles go hard, the cider is carbonated. Put one in the fridge for an hour and try it. If it's fizzy enough then it's time to pasteurise the whole batch. If it's not wait a couple more days and try another one. The procedure for pasteurising is simple; heat a pot of water to 88C and then put a few bottles in for ten minutes. The yeast in the bottle is denatured, leaving just the right amount of fizz. Heat the water back to 88C and repeat (don't heat the plastic bottles obviously).
Here is a link to a brewer that does something similar regularly with no issues Link
I have spoken to the professional brewers that make Carling cider and Stella cidre amongst other stuff and they buy apple juice as concentrate from the world market, wherever is cheapest i.e Chile or other South American countries, which is the equivalent of us buying cheap Lidl AJ. Then they brew it out to 1000ish and then filter to remove all the yeast. We can't filter fine enough to do this. They then add high fructose syrup to sweeten to taste and force carbonate, so not a million miles away from the procedure above.
2. A selection of a few different types of cheap apple juice gives a bit of depth to the flavour. Boil a couple of tea bags with 1/2 Kg of sugar and some yeast nutrient. Add to 18L of juice and top up to 23L.
3. I brew for a couple of weeks, then crash cool for a week in the same bucket. Then rack to a bottling bucket.
4. I have used us05, white wine yeast, champagne yeast and the brew I put on yesterday was my first try with Young's cider yeast. I will let you know how it goes. Ale yeast and wine yeast work ok, but whatever you use it will ferment down to 1000 more or less. There are no dextrins like in wort to give you any body. The only problem I ever had was with champagne yeast; after it crash cooled the yeast stuck to the bottom of the bucket like a pancake. When I bottle conditioned there was no fizz, because there was no yeast. It all stayed in the FV.
5. It does seem to get better the longer you leave it, in the bottle or in bulk doesn't seem to matter.
6. I brew for 1-2 weeks. Cool for 1 week. Bottle and carbonate for 2 weeks. Drink! Hic!
7. If it's in a sealed bucket, in a sealed fridge, in a sealed shed, I would shrink wrap the shed, just to make sure. Little buggers!
The one thing I've been experimenting with is back sweetening. It always tastes way too dry for me straight out the fv, so I've been trying maltodextrin, glycerol, sweetex etc. all in varying ratios, but they all taste a bit sickly to me. This next brew however I am going to try pasteurising, which I am quite excited about. Basically you brew it out, until 1000ish, then crash cool etc. as normal. Before bottling, you add enough sugar or apple juice to the bulk batch (after racking off the yeast), so it tastes just right, then add your 140g of sugar or whatever amount you use for bottle conditioning on top of this. Also fill 2 or 3 PET bottles when bottling. After 7-10 days, when these plastic bottles go hard, the cider is carbonated. Put one in the fridge for an hour and try it. If it's fizzy enough then it's time to pasteurise the whole batch. If it's not wait a couple more days and try another one. The procedure for pasteurising is simple; heat a pot of water to 88C and then put a few bottles in for ten minutes. The yeast in the bottle is denatured, leaving just the right amount of fizz. Heat the water back to 88C and repeat (don't heat the plastic bottles obviously).
Here is a link to a brewer that does something similar regularly with no issues Link
I have spoken to the professional brewers that make Carling cider and Stella cidre amongst other stuff and they buy apple juice as concentrate from the world market, wherever is cheapest i.e Chile or other South American countries, which is the equivalent of us buying cheap Lidl AJ. Then they brew it out to 1000ish and then filter to remove all the yeast. We can't filter fine enough to do this. They then add high fructose syrup to sweeten to taste and force carbonate, so not a million miles away from the procedure above.
Stay Home - Make Beer - Drink Beer
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HopIt
Re: Cider questions
I imagine (having never tried this before) that adding the apples would give a nice apple flavour. Does suma give a similar level of flavour? My assumption was that the apple juice from concentrate would ferment to a dry flavourless cider
I don't like most cheap commercial cider and generally drink Weston's or perry or traditional cask cider in pubs, so this is vaguely what I'm looking for.
I don't like most cheap commercial cider and generally drink Weston's or perry or traditional cask cider in pubs, so this is vaguely what I'm looking for.
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oldbloke
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Re: Cider questions
Juice is juice. They're all formulated to taste like apple juice. It really makes no difference whether it's pure, 'from concentrate', or actual concentrate. They all have about the same amount of apple and about the same amount of sugar. It wouldn't sell otherwise. Obvious really.
OK there are slight flavour differences. So choose one you like as juice, it should give a cider you like. Personally I find the slight extra cost of Suma worthwhile, partly for the flavour and partly for the acidity being perfect (when diluted 1:6, checked with pH paper and a titration kit). It's only really worth messing with real apples if they're going to provide something the juice lacks, or if you're going to do proper all-from-apples cider. Another plus with the Suma is you can get more apple into the same volume, because it's a concentrate and you needn't dilute it to drinking-as-juice levels, for brewing purposes. Sadly this will up the ABV a bit, but I'm not averse to 6.5% myself.
I know a lot of TC makers favour adding some real apple, to adjust tannin and acidity, but the apples in shops aren't cider apples and won't have the tannin or malic acid you're looking for. If you can access some real cider apples, yeh maybe. But unless you want to try for a secondary malolactic fermentation to get a scrumpy style, there's really no point. And if you do want that, you need a yeast carrying the lactobacillus (eg from the dregs of a bottle of Old Rosie) and it needs many months for the MLF to happen. Personally I had enough scrumpy as a teenager in Somerset, I now prefer the clean style.
OK there are slight flavour differences. So choose one you like as juice, it should give a cider you like. Personally I find the slight extra cost of Suma worthwhile, partly for the flavour and partly for the acidity being perfect (when diluted 1:6, checked with pH paper and a titration kit). It's only really worth messing with real apples if they're going to provide something the juice lacks, or if you're going to do proper all-from-apples cider. Another plus with the Suma is you can get more apple into the same volume, because it's a concentrate and you needn't dilute it to drinking-as-juice levels, for brewing purposes. Sadly this will up the ABV a bit, but I'm not averse to 6.5% myself.
I know a lot of TC makers favour adding some real apple, to adjust tannin and acidity, but the apples in shops aren't cider apples and won't have the tannin or malic acid you're looking for. If you can access some real cider apples, yeh maybe. But unless you want to try for a secondary malolactic fermentation to get a scrumpy style, there's really no point. And if you do want that, you need a yeast carrying the lactobacillus (eg from the dregs of a bottle of Old Rosie) and it needs many months for the MLF to happen. Personally I had enough scrumpy as a teenager in Somerset, I now prefer the clean style.
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HopIt
Re: Cider questions
Cool. Any advice on where to buy Suma online for a decent price delivered? Seems the going rate is £4.60 or so for 500ml not including delivery. Some guy is saying the price for 5l on amazon has gone from £23 to £38 in recent times
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oldbloke
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Re: Cider questions
I order from a local hippyfood shop. All the amazon/ebay prices are a rip-off. If I was 8 miles nearer Sowerby Bridge I'd just go to the warehouse...
I can generally negotiate 10% off if I buy a slab of 6 bottles or a 5l poly, on the basis it's in and out in one day, no shelf space wasted, blah blah.
Don't pay the extra for the organic version!
I can generally negotiate 10% off if I buy a slab of 6 bottles or a 5l poly, on the basis it's in and out in one day, no shelf space wasted, blah blah.
Don't pay the extra for the organic version!
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HopIt
Re: Cider questions
How much are you paying for 6 bottles from your local shop? I was quoted same as amazon price
Re: Cider questions
My understanding is that the reason that ciders often end up too dry is that ALL of the sugar in apple juice (from real apples or shop bought juice) is fermentable. The same is not true with the sugars in beer wort. Thus, given enough time and no intervention cider all ends up as dry as a nun's chuff, unless your alcohol strength is high enough to kill the yeast off before hand. I don't think ale yeast is a solution to this unless it gets killed off at lower ABV, before the sugar is all converted...?
In my Cider this year I killed the yeast off with Camden and added sugar to get the sweetness I wanted. If you don't want to do this you can try to keep it cold enough to achieve the same thing.
In my Cider this year I killed the yeast off with Camden and added sugar to get the sweetness I wanted. If you don't want to do this you can try to keep it cold enough to achieve the same thing.
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oldbloke
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Re: Cider questions
Haven't bought any for a while but something like 25quid for 6 500ml bottles IIRC. Sounds a lot but it makes quite a lot of cider. I wouldn't pay a delivery charge on top of that - I'd go back to Morrison's cheapo juice.HopIt wrote:How much are you paying for 6 bottles from your local shop? I was quoted same as amazon price
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oldbloke
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Re: Cider questions
HopIt wrote:Cool. Any advice on where to buy Suma online for a decent price delivered? Seems the going rate is £4.60 or so for 500ml not including delivery. Some guy is saying the price for 5l on amazon has gone from £23 to £38 in recent times
On Friday evening I happened to have sight of the catalogue Suma distribute to retailers. A slab of 6 500ml non-organic bottles is 21.64 inc VAT. If that's the RRP not the wholesale price it's 3.60 a bottle, add in the other juice, tannin, yeast, etc, looking at decent cider for about 60p a bottle, max.
Even if it's the wholesale price, it's a target to negotiate towards! You know anything more than that is profit to the shop, for no effort on their part.