Stout & mashing dark grains

[mooj]

I'm planning my first stout this weekend and I've seen somewhere before that people recommend adding dark grains towards the end of the mash but should I bother with a stout?

I have pretty high ph water so the early addition would help balance the alkalinity and I'm aiming for a mash temp of 67-68deg.

[Aleman]

Again the question needs to be asked - what is your aim?

The general reason for adding the dark malts towards the end of the mash is so that you extract the colouring without any of the 'potentail' harshness from the roast grain. The result is a lovely smooth quickly maturing beer . . . . Is it true to style?? Is that what you want, a smooth dark beer with no roast character?

I was fortunate to sample a batch of Ushers Stout (1885) in the summer and this was a wonderfully smooth beer. I have no doubt that the brewer mashed the grains for the duration of the mash as that was the practice at the time.

I often wonder if the people recommending this approach do so because they actually don't like dark beers, and don't actually know what a real example should taste like (casting glances over the pond here). The other problem is that often a 'large' qty of roast malts is specified, which does lead to extreme roastiness in a beer . . . . . . . but with extended aging the beer turns into a sublime product.

Post your intended recipe and let some of the guys here critique it, I'm sure that a good beer will result

[mooj]

Thanks TBFKATJB Well, I like a variety of stouts and I certainly like a roast character so I think you've answered my question really and I'll probably add at the begining.

I can't quite decide on the recipe but I don't have any flaked barley and was thinking along the lines of the Beamish recipe from Graham Wheelers byobraah:-

(23litres)
Pale 3kg
choc malt 200g
roast barley 400g
dark wheat malt 600g

I might up the grain bill aiming for about 5% alc. Possibly adding some crystal.

I have the following hops: EKG, Progress, Pacific gem, Mittelfruh, Tettnang, Northdown & Amarillo. I possibly won't bother with late additions or use the lager hops. Northdown and Amarillo are my initial thoughts.

I don't want to wait an eternity for any harshness to subside, I'm looking to drink this a month from bottling. Should I mash at the lower end to avoid tannins?

[Aleman]

Well its not a lot of roast malt, so I would guess that you shouldn't have any problems adding it at the start.

Hops - Stick with the traditional Progress or Northdown and EKG, amarillo is not appropriate in a stout.

Mash temp 65C, Sparge liquor at 72C, should avoid any astringency being extracted.

[bconnery]

Dark grains also assist in ph adjustement, so if you treat your water to get ph levels then adding dark grains at the end might be a good idea.
From what you said you don't, so dark grains in the mash is good...

I can highly recommend Pacific Gem as a stout hop. In the only one I have made I bittered with this and Northern Brewer and flavoured with Pacific Gem.
It was one of the best beers I have made, and won some comps (I know that doesn't necessarily mean it is the best I just enjoy saying it )

If you want to add roast character without harshness consider the Weyermanns Carafa Special range, if you can get your hands on them, a great way of adding roast and choc character in a smoother way...

[mooj]

Aleman, thanks, you've put me off Amarillo, which I thought was a little risky, I was probably thinking of a Terrys chocolate orange

Will also follow your advice on temperatures which seems to make sense with me. I'll up the roast to 500g as well.
Initial thoughts are 1045-1048OG and around 45IBU.

bconnery - I usually do adjust with CRS prior but with this one I'll probably start with a fairly thick mash and then test with a ph paper, reckon it could end up spot on, then either add more mash liquer or CRS depending on which way it goes. Did you add a lot of Pacific gem at the end for flavour? I was actually thinking of just one addition at the beginning, which I wouldn't usually do on a bitter or pale ale as I like a big aroma.

I've narrowed the hops to a combination of pacific gem + EKG or northdown and EKG, I'll smell the mash before deciding, that's the way I like to brew.

[drsmurto]

Ok, so if i am reading this coreectly and also reading between the lines.

For an irish stout you would add the roast barley late in the mash?

I plan on making a guinness which is much more subtle and smoother than the Coopers BE Stout i drink plenty of during the colder month.

Recipe for 20L is

3.50 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EBC) Grain 70.00 %
1.00 kg Barley, Flaked (Thomas Fawcett) (3.9 EBC) Grain 20.00 %
0.50 kg Roasted Barley (Joe White) (1398.7 EBC) Grain 10.00 %
16.00 gm Northern Brewer [9.10 %] (60 min) Hops 17.7 IBU
25.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 15.2 IBU
25.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (30 min) Hops 11.7 IBU
1 Pkgs Irish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1084) Yeast-Ale

Thoughts? Using these hops cos its whats in the fridge. Will the 30 min addition add too much flavour for a guinness style stout?

Cheers
DrSmurto

[Aleman]

For an irish stout you would add the roast barley late in the mash?

Guinness don't! The real issue with dark grains is when recipes specify huge qtys of Black malt/roast barley along with other dark grains. This coupled with the usual home brewers lack attention to temperature control, leads to tannin extraction along with the bitter roast character from the dark malts giving a harsh beer, which can be especially true for brewers in soft water areas. Now there are three techniques that can be used to reduce/eliminate this harshness . . .If you have noticed it in your beer and want to tame it . . . . The first is to add teh really dark malts (Say EBC 800 and above) late in the mash, say with 10 minutes or less to go. You won't get the full flavour addition or colour extraction, but then you probably won't notice . The second method is to cold steep the dark grains overnight (16 hours). You need to use 3 times the grain specified in the recipe, your usual liquor to grist ratio of COLD water, cover it and leave it to get to work. Strain off the liquid and add it to the boiler as you start the sparge. The third technique is to use some of the Weyermann Carafa Special Malts (Replace chocolate (I) Black (II) and Roast (III)) which are dehusked roasted malts. They do not provide any roast character (Or very little) so a mixture of 50:50 or 75/25 normal:carafa could be called for. I've used all three techniques ad if you want to make a dark beer in a hurry then all of them will work. It doesn't have the authenticity of doing it traditionally but it also doesn't have the 6-8 weeks maturation time either

I plan on making a guinness which is much more subtle and smoother than the Coopers BE Stout i drink plenty of during the colder month.

Recipe for 20L is

3.50 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EBC) Grain 70.00 %
1.00 kg Barley, Flaked (Thomas Fawcett) (3.9 EBC) Grain 20.00 %
0.50 kg Roasted Barley (Joe White) (1398.7 EBC) Grain 10.00 %
16.00 gm Northern Brewer [9.10 %] (60 min) Hops 17.7 IBU
25.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 15.2 IBU
25.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (30 min) Hops 11.7 IBU
1 Pkgs Irish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1084) Yeast-Ale

Thoughts? Using these hops cos its whats in the fridge. Will the 30 min addition add too much flavour for a guinness style stout?

Generally stouts do not derive much flavour from the hops, so a flavour/aroma addition is inappropriate. I'd also suspect that 40 IBU is a bit high for an Irish style where a lot of the bitterness is derived from the roast grain anyway., so cut it back to around 30 by dropping the 30 minute addition.

[Madbrewer]

I can't quite decide on the recipe but I don't have any flaked barley and was thinking along the lines of the Beamish recipe from Graham Wheelers byobraah:-

(23litres)
Pale 3kg
choc malt 200g
roast barley 400g
dark wheat malt 600g

Both wheelers Murphy's and Beamish recipes that I brewed seemed spot on! FWIW I did 90 min mashes with it all in full duration. If I was doing it again I'd go Beamish - though I seem to remember there being a syrup somewhere in the recipe? (Don't have the book to hand though). Also never heard oh that harshness you speak of - but didn't notice any either!

[Dan]

I would second the pacific gem as a stout hops. they are a bit too powerful for most lighter styles anyway.

[Aleman]

Also never heard oh that harshness you speak of - but didn't notice any either!

As I said in an earlier post I suspect its caused by using vast qtys of roast malts to make it 'extra' stout, and not knowing what the real product should taste like in the first place. They are useful techniques to have to assist with producing a quickly maturing dark ale.

Personally I add it all in at the beginning, and let the beer age. I have a rather nice Black Wheat beer that was made in March and its going to be wonderful for Christmas.

[Vossy1]

I've done a couple of oatmeal stouts recently and I added the dark grains at the beginning of the mash.
Both mashes were over 2.5 hours and the resulting beers were really smooth and very easy to drink.
I think the base recipe would be very good even without the oatmeal.
I don't really like coffee flavours in my stouts/darks or the harsh bitterness mentioned above.

[Dan]

did you use pH 5.2 vossy?

[Vossy1]

did you use pH 5.2 vossy?

Yep, I tend to use it all the time now.

[niall]

I plan on making a guinness which is much more subtle and smoother than the Coopers BE Stout i drink plenty of during the colder month.

It's also blander. Coopers Stout is fantastic.