Decoction mash

[Neal]

Think I'm going to chance a bona fide one step decoction in that case - can't do a beer with no froth. Best get some malt then.....

[Aleman]

If you're pouring boiling water in to raise the temp, could you be denaturing some of the head-retaining proteins if they come into direct contact with boiling water?

Not to the same extent as boiling portions of the mash for 15 minutes at a time would do. . . . . I've made a traditional triple decocted Bohemian Pilsner (taking 12 hours over the mash) Using just pilsner malt, that you could stand a match in the head, really tight and creamy, so decoctions don't really affect the head retention/formation too much . . . as long as you don't hang around in the protein digestion range too long. Personally I would avoid anything in the 50-62C range with modern malts, including wheat, as too much protein digestion has already taken place during malting, and kilning

[awalker]

If you're pouring boiling water in to raise the temp, could you be denaturing some of the head-retaining proteins if they come into direct contact with boiling water?

Not to the same extent as boiling portions of the mash for 15 minutes at a time would do. . . . . I've made a traditional triple decocted Bohemian Pilsner (taking 12 hours over the mash) Using just pilsner malt, that you could stand a match in the head, really tight and creamy, so decoctions don't really affect the head retention/formation too much . . . as long as you don't hang around in the protein digestion range too long. Personally I would avoid anything in the 50-62C range with modern malts, including wheat, as too much protein digestion has already taken place during malting, and kilning

Hmm never use boiling only 80oC max, so the mash never exceeds 77oC

[Neal]

... and the boil later would denature them anyway if they were sensitive. With a decoction, you're trying to take as little of the liquid anyway, aren't you, as all the useful heat sensitive proteins (like enzymes) are in the liquid fraction of the mash? I was going to hoik the decoction out with a seive for that reason.

[delboy]

... and the boil later would denature them anyway if they were sensitive. With a decoction, you're trying to take as little of the liquid anyway, aren't you, as all the useful heat sensitive proteins (like enzymes) are in the liquid fraction of the mash? I was going to hoik the decoction out with a seive for that reason.

Correct amondo you will want a very small amount of liquid though otherwise it'll burn stirred or not.

[Aleman]

... and the boil later would denature them anyway if they were sensitive. With a decoction, you're trying to take as little of the liquid anyway, aren't you, as all the useful heat sensitive proteins (like enzymes) are in the liquid fraction of the mash? I was going to hoik the decoction out with a seive for that reason.

Correct amondo you will want a very small amount of liquid though otherwise it'll burn stirred or not.

I could pass on a tip I discovered when I was in Plzen in the 80's
































While the mash is resting, heat a qty of water up to boiling in the decoction kettle. Then when you take the thick portion of the mash and add it to the decoction kettle the boiling water immediately raises the temp of the decoction to the next rest temp, and thins it so that it won't scorch while you boil it . . .. Yes, you do end up with a very thin mash, at Plzen the mash can end up at 6L/kg after the third decoction . . . you need to be able to account for this extra volume in the mash tun though

[Barley Water]

I can't resist, I just have to throw in my two cents into this thread. First, I stopped doing protein rests on any of the beers I make. I especially noticed while making heffe that head retention was lousy if I did a protein rest. If you can't generate a great big head on a wheat beer, you are really doing something wrong in my opinion. Anyhow, once I stopped doing that, the problem promptly went away. Some folks do a rest at about 120F for the purpose of generating more clove flavor but I like bubblegum and bananna better so it is not an issue with me. With a wheat beer of course you want haze so clarity is not an issue either. I have not noticed any problems with chill haze in any of the lagers or other ales I make, I am assuming that is because the malt is pretty well modified.

As far as decoctions go, I think the biggest bonus is better mouthfeel. As an additional bonus, you get some caramelization giving you the much sought after meloidin reactions (which many formulations mimic with the addition of Munich malt). Finally, your utilization will go up a little bit but I really don't care so much about that. Many will argue my assertions on this topic and I know that many commercial brewers have stopped doing them but I contend that is more of an economic consideration on their part. After you have done a couple of brews this way, I think you will find it is really no big deal unless you start doing 45 minute boils and tripple decoct your beers.