Brupaks CRS - what is it exactly?

[Muttley]

Brupaks CRS is used to reduce the alkalinity of your brewing liquor, but what is is exactly? It is some form of acid, that's for sure, but is it sulphuric acid (in which case it would convert the largely unwanted calcium bicarbonate and carbonate to beneficial calcium sulphate) or is it phosphoric or some other form of acid. If so are these other salts beneficial (or otherwise) to the liquor?

[Aleman]

It will increase the calcium viewtopic.php?p=164521#164521 as well as increasing the sulphate and chloride levels by 97 and 61 mg repectively.

There is no way it can increase the calcium

Hydrochloric Acid - HCl (Hydrogen ion and chloride ion)
Sulphuric Acid - H2SO4 (Hydrogen ion and Sulphate moiety)

No calcium involved anywhere, so as Graham says in the link "you will have at least that much calcium" (Which should read at most that much calcium IMO)

Also another point is that 97 and 61 mg per ml per cc or per L . . . I suspect its per ml (Of CRS added) which means that if you add 1ml of CRS to 10L of liquor you increase the sulphate by 9.7 mg/L and chloride by 6.1mg/L

HTH

[Aleman]

While it doesn't 'liberate' calcium it does leave it alone, but eliminates the carbonate (as water and CO2) leaving Sulphate and Chloride. The balanced chemical equations are as follows ( I hope )

For the Calcium Carbonate and Hydrochloric Acid Reaction

CaCO3 + 2HCl -> CaCl2 + H2O + CO2

And the Calcium carbonate and sulphuric acid

CaCO3 + H2SO4 -> CaSO4 + H2O + CO2

[Aleman]

Errrmmmm


Strictly speaking it could (Thats right sit on the fence ) The solubility of Calcium carbonate is very low, increase the temperature and it reduces even further (Hence why it precipitates when preboiling brewing liquor) . . . . put it in an acid environment though ( like the mash ) and you increase the solubility . . . . . . Of course it then reacts with the phosphate from the mash and precipitates anyway

I would say that there will be more calcium available following CRS treatment than no treatment . . . purely because the heating of the mash liquor will lead to some precipitation

[Muttley]

Daab & Aleman - thanks for the replies. In short I suppose that means that as well as adjusting the pH of the liquor, CRS is beneficial in adding "good" salts such as CaCl2 and CaSO4.

Do commercial breweries use the same sort of acid mixture to adjust their brewing liquor?

Thanks for a great forum - I'm learning so much through it.

[Aleman]

as well as adjusting the pH of the liquor, CRS is beneficial in adding "good" salts such as CaCl2 and CaSO4.

<Pedant Alert> You are not adjusting the pH of the liquor, you are reducing the alkalinity of the liquor. Done properly the pH will not fall (too much )

Do commercial breweries use the same sort of acid mixture to adjust their brewing liquor?

They do indeed . . .Murphy's AWS is the same thing as BruPaks CRS, but just available in 25L drums

[Muttley]

As a new member to this forum I hesitate to disagree, but surely if you are taking out basic salts such as Ca(HCO3)2 and CaCO3 you MUST be adjusting the pH - ideally not making it acidic but lowering it by some degree.

On a related note, I've only just started using CRS (I used to do a boil before that to precipitate out the CaCO3) but in addition I have started to add pH5.2 buffer to my mash. Is this overkill or would you recommend that I continue to do this?

Thanks again for the discussion.

[jubby]

I have read this thread a couple of times. I still don't really have a clue (no change there then) but I just wanted to say that I use CRS and DLS as per the Brupaks recommendations and the beer is very good. I asked Brupaks for info. on these. The CRS reduces carbonates as the name suggests but it is not used to lower ph (as aleman said) DLS lowers the ph when mixed with the grist. However I did use CRS without using DLS once and the mash ph was exactly 5.2. (I live in a hard water area) Probably not much help Muttley, but I thought I would share my limited experiences.

[Muttley]

Jubby - thanks for the information, interesting. When I used to do a boil I added CaSO4, MgSO4 and NaCl to the liquor as recommended in Graham Wheeler's book. I only once took the pH of the mash but it was spot on 5.3. I was wondering whether if by using CRS and generating CaSO4 in the liquor this would effectively be the same thing. I suppose the best way would be just to try it without the pH5.2 buffer and measure the pH of the mash, or perhaps I shouldn't worry and just drink the beer!

[Aleman]

As a new member to this forum I hesitate to disagree, but surely if you are taking out basic salts such as Ca(HCO3)2 and CaCO3 you MUST be adjusting the pH - ideally not making it acidic but lowering it by some degree.

The alkalinity of the liquor is a measurement of the buffering capability of the liquor i.e. the degree by which it resists a change to the pH. When you reduce the alkalinity by adding acid, you reduce the ability to resist the change in pH . . . not actually change the pH . . . Of course once you have adjusted the alkalinity to zero, a single drop of acid will cause the pH to crash. When adjusting the alkalinity of the liquor for brewing you lower it to a predetermined value (normally around 30ppm) not to zero so the liquor still has the same pH as before, but is less able to resist a change in the pH.

[Muttley]

Aleman - fair enough. Thanks for the explanation.

[Aleman]

I have started to add pH5.2 buffer to my mash. Is this overkill or would you recommend that I continue to do this?

If you get the alkalinity reduced to a sensible level, you should find that the mash pH naturally falls to around 5.2-5.3, if not the addition of gypsum and calcium chloride to boost calcium levels should cause it to do so.

Knowing that pH 5.2 buffer is a phosphate based buffer I would hesitate to use it at all in my brewing, as it will cause calcium to be precipitated out of the mash, and if it carries though to the boil in the boil as well. Calcium deficiency has been linked to poor hot break, yeast performance and haze (it affects yeast flocculation). . . . In areas where the water is hard (Like Essex and most of East Anglia) then you probably won't notice a difference . . . Up here though it is likely to cause serious problems.

[ashbyp]

Noticed the question about how breweries reduce bicarbonates...

I also wondered how they remove Chlorine and chloramine? I use Campden tablets... do they use a similar substance, or some other way?