Help converting TT landlord recipe

[Brownster]

Hi All,
I managed to get hold of the book 'brew your own real ale...' by Graham Wheeler and Roger Protz, from our local library.
The recipe given for this is:

Pale malt 4700gm

hops at start:
goldings 28gm
fuggles 50gm

15 mins:
goldings 15gm

30 EBU'S, mash 66C for 90mins, 2hr boil, brew length=23ltrs, OG 1042, FG 1010, ABV 4.3%.

I'm quite new to this (this will be my 3rd AG brew) but I'm pretty sure I need to adjust the bittering hops based on what the book assumed > what I buy now.
In the book he lists common AA content so I've taken this as the basis for my calculations, from the book:
goldings a/a = 5.3%
fuggles a/a = 4.5%
so using the calculator I get:
32gms goldings
41gms fuggles

The book assumes a low 20% utilization for the hops which reading Daabs post, maybe 30% is a more likely figure, what do you think?
I don't want it to end up too bitter so I'm trying to hit the 30EBU's. does the above quantity seem about right?

Also what do you think of the recommended 2hr boil time, I normally do 90mins but is 2hrs ok?

Thanks!

Wayne.

[Whorst]

Wayne, do you know your mash efficiency? The numbers provided are worthless, because it may over/undershoot your starting gravity. I only get 60% mash efficiency, so my Landlord clone used 4085g of Golden Promise. You'll need to determine(from previous batches) how much malt you need to get you to 1.043-1.044. I'd also use Fuggles for bittering, Goldings for flavor, and a lot of Styrians at the end, and maybe even some whirlpooled. IBU's should be around 35-40.

[Parva]

Whorst is correct, you need to get into efficiency and stuff to truly replicate things. Me, I've just done AG #7 (10 gallons) and I'm hoping it's a bit like Summer Lightening. Ultimately, it'll be good though. Just go with the recipe and worry about things later. You'll undoubtedly get a good brew regardless.

[Brownster]

Wayne, do you know your mash efficiency? The numbers provided are worthless, because it may over/undershoot your starting gravity. I only get 60% mash efficiency

I've just worked it out on the 'John Palmer book' site, I make my efficiency 60% based on my last brew (SiHolyte calculated 61.8% on my first AG brew so I think 60% is what I'm getting)
I think I'd like to try and keep to this recipe with regards to the hops as they are both traditional english hops, I just want to get the bitterness about right.
With regards to efficiency, my current practice is to boil what I can in my 5 gallon boiler, then once cooled, adjust the the volume to the hit my target OG so I could end up down on volume but still get a beer close to the original or am I shooting off in the wrong direction?

Cheers,
Wayne.

[Brownster]

There are all the figures there you need, 'worthless' is unfair and inaccurate. Wheelers recipes are based on 70% efficiency and the hop figures are based on 5 year averages.

Brewery recipes change over time to reflect current tastes and availability of ingredients. Later editions of the book have changed to reflect this. The latest edition suggests 35 IBUs. It also suggests styrian goldings at the start of boil.

I'd stick with 1042 and 4.3% which is the current cask strength (and has been for some time), the current bottled version is 4.1%.

Switch the goldings the start of the boil to styrian goldings and up them to give you an extra 5 EBUs and you'll have a good starting point imo.

It's unlikely that you'll get the level of caramelisation that TT get to give you the colour, even with a 2 hr boil, a little brewers caramel or crystal malt will help here (which will save you the 2hr boil, 60-90 mins will be fine) although there are other techniques you could employ if you are a real purist.

Hi, It's interesting that the recipe has changed to recommend Styrian goldings at the start and that the IBU's have increased by 5.
How much crystal should I add do you think?

On calculating the IBU's is 20% efficiency realistic or should I be expecting more like 30%? I guess this is the most important aspect of me getting the right bitterness in the brew.

Cheers,
Wayne.

[mysterio]

That's pretty much what I do, Wayne, adjusting the volume near the end of the boil so that I get the right OG.

If there's one thing I would suggest, it's adding Styrian Goldings at the end of the boil, that's the hallmark of this beer IMO

I used a couple of tablespoons of brewers caramel in mine to get the colour

[Brownster]

Thanks Chris and all others for your advice, I'm learning....
I'll do some calculations on the hops now and get an order together.
Cheers,
Wayne.

[Brownster]

Just an update really, I've been thinking about my efficiency and trying to understand it better then (a very large) penny dropped...
I'm reading the John Palmer book online and following his examples, failed to realise he was talking in US gallons so all the
PPG figures quoted are for US gallon and therefore all my calculations were wrong.
Not only that, I was confusing mash efficiency and brew house efficiency, after a few hours of scribbling on paper and doing various calculations I have worked out that my last brew house efficiency was in the order of 71% not 60% !

It's probably worth pointing out this US gallon thing to other newbies like me, saves some headaches
Mash Efficiency
Malts Chart

I've got my order in now, can't wait

[Brownster]

Hi,
Based on my (new) calculations, both are higher than I previously thought.

The brew I did was Harveys sussex, minus the crystal malt (which I missed off)
OG was 1045 with 5 uk gallons (equiv. 6 us gallons)
The brew house efficiency I calculated like this:
lb's malt x max ppg for grain / final volume in US gallons
I had
pale malt 8.5 lbs , max ppg 38, 8.5 x 38 / 6 = 53.8
flaked maize .63 , max ppg 39, .63 x 39 / 6 = 4.15
black malt .11 lb , max ppg 25, .11 x 25 / 6 = .45
brown sugar .61 lb, max ppg 46, .61 x 46 / 6=4.68

total max ppg = 63.08
divide OG / max ppg, 45 / 63 = 71% efficiency

if you change the volume from 6 to 5 (my mistake in using imperial gallons) you get totally different (worse) efficiency.

The mash efficiency I get:
Leaving off the brown sugar from the above (as it was not in the tun)
the pre-boil volume was 4 uk gallons (4.8 us gallons) at an og of 1057 (adjusted for temperature)
8.5 x 38 / 4.8 = 67.2
.63 x 39 / 4.8 = 5.1
.11 x 25 / 4.8 = .57
total max ppgs = 72.87
57 / 72.8 = 78% mash efficiency


Hope I got this right! the max ppg's are from the John Palmer site, as are the formula's

[Brownster]

Thanks Chris,
I like your figure even more, 76% !
I am looking for some metric charts for maximum yields, I don't suppose you know of any online anywhere do you? I've looked and all I could find was some on beersmith but they are ppg in US gallons too I believe.

Failing that you say multiply the Palmer maximum figures by 8.34 then I have a kg to ltr figure?

I really don't want to be converting US galls. all the time
The book I got was the old Wheeler book 'brew your own real ale at home' currently out of print and selling for £30 second hand on amazon!
Do you have a new release of this or another title by the same author? If it's any good I might get it.

Damn I feel like I'm starting to get a handle on this brewing lark
Thanks again for your (and others) help.

[Subsonic]

American recipes confused the hell out for me for ages on the 'gallons' issue. I was just the same. Then the penny dropped and my efficiency soared! Now I use metric, all the time. But - its a good point you made and one that others may benefit from. American gallons are not the same.....

[Brownster]

Hasn't the Wheeler book got the figures in ?

Sorry, I don't know anywhere on line with a list of malts with metric malt yield figures.

No, this book at least does not list the figures, or talk about calculating efficiency. I think one of the nice things about this book is it's easy no nonsense approach, showing you how to brew with just what you need to know (like adjusting for a/a) and the recipes without getting technical. There is no info on creating recipes either but the fact that you have about 200 recipes copying many famous brews is enough for me !
I shall keep searching for that elusive metric grain yield info!!!