Urqell Pilsner

[louthepoo]

I'm brewing this with a mate (who's never homebrewed before) Wednesday and had a couple of questions first.

What yeast should i use?

How important is it treating the water first? My water is hard!

If i cant find any Saaz hops what can i substitute them with?

cheers,

LTP

[Garth]

why not replace the Saaz with Hallertau, they are both a low bitterness lager hop. Wheeler recommends they are simply replaced gram for gram, although this depends on the AAU.

S-23 Saflager for the yeast, perhaps?

Are you doing the Pilsner Urquell in Wheelers book, the one with 5080g Lager malt and 265g Carapils?

[mysterio]

Try and get WLP800 lager yeast from hop and grape, I believe this is Urquell's actual yeast strain. Saflager S-23 will do just fine too. Remember to ferment at the recommended temps.

You really need soft water for this one, spring water would work well, or reverse osmosis water with slight calcium additions.

As for saaz hops... really try and find them. They are the signature Pilsner Urquell hops that have been used for centuries and they have a unique spicy flavour. The only things you need to get close to PU are pilsner malt and Saaz hops. You could get them delivered at cost from one of the online homebrew shops.

[BigEd]

I'm with mysterio on this one all the way, lou. Soft water, Saaz hops and the Czech yeast are what Pilsner Urquell is all about. Saaz are a popular hop so I would think most homebrew suppliers would keep them in stock. Agree that low-mineral spring water or RO/distilled water with a little calcium addition (calcium chloride is what I suggest) is a must. The White Lab WLP 800 is the Urquell strain and they also offer the WLP 802 Budejovice yeast which would also work great. Wyeast has their 2001 Urquell and 2000 Budvar as well. Good luck with the pils. A true Czech style is a terrific beer. I have one in primary now and can't wait until it reaches the drinking stage.


Here's my pilsner: http://jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4005

[SteveD]

Try and get WLP800 lager yeast from hop and grape, I believe this is Urquell's actual yeast strain. Saflager S-23 will do just fine too. Remember to ferment at the recommended temps.

You really need soft water for this one, spring water would work well, or reverse osmosis water with slight calcium additions.

As for saaz hops... really try and find them. They are the signature Pilsner Urquell hops that have been used for centuries and they have a unique spicy flavour. The only things you need to get close to PU are pilsner malt and Saaz hops. You could get them delivered at cost from one of the online homebrew shops.

Agree with all that, and would add on the subject of water treatment that if your water is hard because of 'bicarbonate', ie temporary hardness, you can treat that with lactic acid which would also acidify the mash in the correct way for lager. If you used CRS you'd end up increasing the calcium cholride and calcium sulphate content, which you don't really want. Lager mash acidification relies on lactic acid, traditionally obtained by a lactic rest period which encouraged the lactobacillius present in the malt to produce the lactic acid. I think modern acid malt does the same thing - you could of course add that.

If your water is permanently hard ie high calcium sulphate levels ...you're stuffed, so follow Mysterio! Good clean rainwater could be used too.

[UserDeleted]

On the subject of water treatment that if your water is hard because of 'bicarbonate', ie temporary hardness, you can treat that with lactic acid which would also acidify the mash in the correct way for lager.

And if you have a high degree of 'bicarbonate' the amount of lactic acid you would end up using would be tasteable in teh finished beer. Lactic sourness is NOT a good thing in a bohemian pilsner!

If you used CRS you'd end up increasing the calcium cholride and calcium sulphate content, which you don't really want.

but actually by a trivial amount so that it can effectively be ignored. After all if you have a high bicarbonate level then the odds are that your other minerals are going to be present in fairly high quantities as well.

Lager mash acidification relies on lactic acid, traditionally obtained by a lactic rest period which encouraged the lactobacillius present in the malt to produce the lactic acid. I think modern acid malt does the same thing - you could of course add that.

Only in German Pilsner brewing, and it only works if your beer has fairly low buffering capability

If your water is permanently hard ie high calcium sulphate levels ...you're stuffed

Yeah, you'd have to brew a German Pilsner after all Munich has 'gypsous' liquor (High calcium sulphate) and yet they brew very acceptable pilsners.

I must admit though that you would be better off using 'pure' water. Some Tropical Fish shops will sell RO water which can be used to 'dilute' you local brewing water. Often Shop bought mineral water is 'high' in bicarbonate so make sure that you check any labels. If you do decide to use rain water, make sure that you boil it all and DO NOT use it for topping up unless it has been boiled!

[louthepoo]

cheers for all the replies.

I've got the Saaz hops but the brewing is on hold as the HBS shop in Shrewsbury had no Lager Malt and Yeast Drove to Harris home brew (1h20 return trip) only to find they were shut

I'm gonna plan ahead next time and ring ahead to see what they've got! I could have had the stuff delivered for the cost of the petrol i used!!

The water situation is a bit of a concern, the water round here is permanantly hard, would the cheapy bottled spring water from the supermarkets be ok to use?

[UserDeleted]

The water situation is a bit of a concern, the water round here is permanantly hard, would the cheapy bottled spring water from the supermarkets be ok to use?

The only thing to be aware of is the 'bicarbonate' content. This is often quoted on the label so that you are aware of what it would be. You can then calculate the amount of 'acid' to add to reduce the alkalinity to the desired level (Ideally less than 30ppm for bohemian pilsners) Although NOT directly translatable you can take the bicarbonate level as being equivilent to the alkalinty, and use the CRS spreadsheet to work out how much CRS to add.

[SteveD]

If you've got permanent hard water, and you can't get Saaz, why not forget Urquell, and brew something, eg a pale ale, which is more suited to what you have got. Use the lager malt if you've already got it, or get pale malt, UK hops, and top ferment. It'll come out lovely. Or, use German hops and go for a Munich lager as UserDeleted suggest.

Ps on water treatment, I live in a moderately hard water area (HCO3 220ppm) and have never had a problem acidifying with lactic acid to hit ph 5.2 in the mash, even with pale ales. Never detected it in the beer.

[louthepoo]

Garth: Got the recipe from Dave Line's - Brew beers like those you buy.

Steve: Its a beer for a mate and he only drinks pils! I've got the saaz btw. Where do you get lactic acid from? a chemist?

[steve_flack]

Steve: Its a beer for a mate and he only drinks pils!

I bet he couldn't tell the difference between a pils and a Kolsch. One's a lager the other's an ale. Apart from the yeast they're pretty much identical. The point is, as SteveD says, you could brew a very pale ale with 'lager hops' and a clean yeast like US-56 and he'd be none the wiser. If you're trying to exactly replicate Urquell you will almost certainly miss what you're aiming for. You might make a nice beer but just because the 'recipe' is said to be the right one doesn't mean you'll make a copy. Remember most lagers have very similar recipes - it's the handling, brewery practices and plant that make them different or special.

[SteveD]

Garth: Got the recipe from Dave Line's - Brew beers like those you buy.

Steve: Its a beer for a mate and he only drinks pils! I've got the saaz btw. Where do you get lactic acid from? a chemist?

Homebrew shop. Lactol is the brand I have at the moment. Or it might say Milchsauer if it came from Germany.

As the Steves say and even David Line stresses, for various reasons, you will not be able to replicate the beer hence it's 'Brewing Beers LIKE those you buy' not 'Brew exact copies of beers you buy'. So why bother with all the aggravation of trying to soften your water. Use your hard water, brew it up as a moderately bitter pale ale with plenty of saaz for flavour and aroma too, and he'll love it. Trust us.

Look at it another way.....so, you get the ingredients and copy the water...are you using the right yeast and about 6-8 sachets? Are you going to ferment it for 3 weeks or more at 8c and drop it to 1c for 3 months lagering?.....Didn't think so! So, it won't be Urquell anyway, therefore, don't aim for it.

[louthepoo]

I understand i'm not going to make an exact copy of the beer but if you read my posts i haven't said i was going to or expect to! I Just wanted to know your ideas on a few things and follow the recipe in the book.

I'm not that experienced at homebrewing and have never done a lager before so wanted to know how important using soft water was, if it was vital and i'd used hard water it could have been crap!

I dont know if he can tell the difference between a pils and a Kolsh BUT if he doesn't like what i've brewed then i'll drink it all myself

thanks for the feedback, i'll let you know how it goes

[steve_flack]

I'm not that experienced at homebrewing and have never done a lager before so wanted to know how important using soft water was, if it was vital and i'd used hard water it could have been crap!

Control of fermentation temperature is more important than the hardness of water when brewing a lager (so long as your mash pH is OK). If you ferment warm you'll get esters that will make it taste like an ale anyway.

[mysterio]

My first lager was a partial mash Pilsner Urquell 'clone', and it turned out really good. I'm not saying it was indistinguishable from the real thing but it was a good stab at a czech pils. I say have a go at it and don't worry about getting everything perfect, but there are definately a few key points you have to watch out for. You should end up with something comperable to the real thing, but if you're aiming for a British lager or pseudo-continental lager (stella), just go for an ale yeast. It will still taste much better than most of the stuff you can buy I bet. Kolsch would be a good one to do with your water because it has a minerally taste. But if you're going for a true Bohemian lager:

Things you must do:

1) Use pilsner malt for all or nearly all of your grist. You could add small amounts of Munich malt or Carapils for malitness/colour adjustment/body but it's not necessary.

2) Pick any lager yeast, I have great results with WLP802 (only lager yeast i've used), and ferment it at the recommended temperature range. If you can keep it between 10 & 12 C it will be fine. I personally recommend pitching at low ale temperatures and setting the fridge to 10C immediately but there are different methods. Then I lager (cold store) at 0C for a week, transfer it to the keg, and store for another 3 weeks.

3) If you're using dried yeast, pitch maybe 2 or 3 sachets, if your using liquid yeast, pitch the dregs of a fully fermented out 4L starter. Oxygenate the wort as best as you can, (O2 system is best, but shaking or aquarium stone works fine). These steps are critical to get the yeast to attenuate properly.

4) Saaz hops, plenty of them

5) Adjust your water if you're doing a soft, full bodied Bohemian pils, or consider a German lager or Kolsch if you've got hard water. What I would personally do with your water is cut it with a few gallons of spring water, maybe half and half, or 1:3 (your water:spring water). Or phone up a couple of aquarium supply shops and see what they charge for RO water. PLEASE don't use rain water!