Problems I cannot find the answer to?

[cumbrianwolf]

After many years of kit and all grain brewing I have decided to bite the bullet and join a forum as I need some help as I cannot figure out where I am going wrong with my brews and I do not want to waste any more on the missus who will drink anything with a % next to it.

My main mash system consists of an insulated mash tun and most mashes are set to 66oC and 90 minutes with final verification of the iodine test, I treat my water accordingly with various mineral salts as advised in my brewing books to bring the PH in line for brewing, my waters PH is around 6.5-6.8 and soft to medium water hardness. After mashing I sparge my grains and boil for 90 minutes with the hops dependent upon the recipe. And after boiling its into the fermenter and into a bath of cold water followed by lots of sterilised frozen 1.5l bottles as a version of big ice cubes as at this time I do not have a chiller. Fermentation is carried out at a consistent 18oC via a thermostatic element and naturally cleared and then off of to a primed barrel or bottles for at least 4 weeks.

I have used numerous yeasts from Gervin English Ale, Safale varients and even fresh yeast, but the same results occur.

The problem I am having is that the beers seem to hold a tang that coats either side of your tongue with a stale flavour even though the beers are crystal clear at times it still feels yeasty or powdery like you get from some cheap dilute orange squash and it will not go away, there is also a slight pump smell that comes from all the beers, the flavour is there hidden by this off flavour as on some batches you get a hint of the real flavour that the beer should display.

Oh and it never used to happen in my other more western location, it leads me to think the water is at fault but I cannot seem to find a solution to this.

So I hope some one can point me in the right direction before I give up all together as my all grain beers end up like a cheap kit which is fine if you have bought a kit but not fine when you have spent half a day lovingly preparing the beer!

[OvenHiker]

A process of elimination of possible causes might be worth considering.

Start with changing the liquor source, since you already suspect it. Supermarket bottled water is relatively cheap and readily available soft-ish water supply. If that turns out to point the finger at your water supply, get it tested.

If your process and equipment has remained unchanged since brewing successfully at previous locations, then focus on what has or might have changed. Liquor first, then perhaps examine any change in the brewing and fermentation environments. And of course, there is the possibility that some part of the equipment has picked up an infection. Just a few ideas, I'm sure others will have more suggestions.

Invest in an immersion chiller. It is so much easier to sanitise in the boiling wort for the last 15 mins or so.

Good luck, and stick at it!

[Mr. Dripping]

The problem I am having is that the beers seem to hold a tang that coats either side of your tongue with a stale flavour even though the beers are crystal clear at times it still feels yeasty or powdery like you get from some cheap dilute orange squash and it will not go away, there is also a slight pump smell that comes from all the beers, the flavour is there hidden by this off flavour as on some batches you get a hint of the real flavour that the beer should display.

Oh and it never used to happen in my other more western location, it leads me to think the water is at fault but I cannot seem to find a solution to this.

First point....you are treating the water with Campden to remove chlorine/chloramine??

I used to get this. It sounds to me like you are hitting a high mash pH and you probably need to adjust the alkalinity of you liquor with an acid treatment.
It also sounds like you are adding salts without knowing what minerals are already there in your water supply.
Start by going on your water suppliers web site or give them a call and see if you can get any data on the alkalinity of your water supply.....you should be able to get a full water report, which also has other useful information on it.
You can buy a Salifert kit to test alkalinity or a more expensive electronic meter. I feel it is very important to measure alkalinity at the start of each brew.
You could also do with some idea of the concentration of the major brewing ions in your water so you can work out the correct salt additions for the beer you are making.....chloride, sulphate, magnesium, bicarbonate. Hopefully you can pick these up from your water report (or at least an average for them).
You can also get your water tested by Murphy & Sons, which isn't too expensive and I would say worthwhile doing.

Have a look at a spreadsheet program called Bru'n'Water (it's free), it takes a bit of getting used to.....but it will help you understand your water and how to hit the correct mash pH with acid and salt treatment.

See if you can get your water report and post up a typical grist and we should be able to help further......without knowing what's in your water and what grains you are using, it is difficult to give specific advice.

[cumbrianwolf]

Mr.Dipping I forgotten all about using Campden tablets to neutralise the chlorine in the water system as I have used this effect with great results when I ran out of sterilisation powder a long time ago and had to use household bleach! As for the PH I shall have to get a probe to make doubly sure that I am keeping it in and around 5.0 on the PH range.

OvenHiker, I will make contact with my supplier and get them to forward an analysis sheet of my water supply, I used to do this a lot when I had a marine aquatic environment and speaking of marine environments I still have access to my top end RO filter which had very little use so I could use this for the next brew, then again it will be devoid of any minerals or salts and I am not sure if that is a good or bad point being so pure so what you do think about that option?

[Dave S]

my waters PH is around 6.5-6.8 and soft to medium water hardness.

I have used numerous yeasts from Gervin English Ale, Safale varients and even fresh yeast, but the same results occur.


Oh and it never used to happen in my other more western location, it leads me to think the water is at fault but I cannot seem to find a solution to this.

If you are mashing at pH 6.5-6.8 it's almost certainly your problem. Mr D's advice is good, get an alkalinity test kit and a water analysis report. You'll get a ball park from your water authority and it should be available on its web site without having to get them to send you one.

[Matt12398]

my waters PH is around 6.5-6.8 and soft to medium water hardness.

I have used numerous yeasts from Gervin English Ale, Safale varients and even fresh yeast, but the same results occur.


Oh and it never used to happen in my other more western location, it leads me to think the water is at fault but I cannot seem to find a solution to this.

If you are mashing at pH 6.5-6.8 it's almost certainly your problem. Mr D's advice is good, get an alkalinity test kit and a water analysis report. You'll get a ball park from your water authority and it should be available on its web site without having to get them to send you one.

I think he's talking about his liquor pH and not his mash pH.

[Mr. Dripping]

Liquor pH is not really that important.....well it is and it isn't the way I see it.
The important thing is what is the pH in the tun......this does depend to a certain degree on the pH of the liquor, but really more down to the alkalinity and the interaction with the grist.
Lowering the alkalinity with an acid treatment just happens also to lower the pH of the liquor.

Without a water report (and grists) it is difficult to give specific advice.

[PhilB]

Hi Mr. D

Lowering the alkalinity with an acid treatment just happens also to lower the pH of the liquor.

... is that right? I think if you're adding enough acid to change the pH of your liquor then you've completely removed the alkalinity (buffering capacity) of that liquor and started to acidify it with the acid haven't you ... generally when lowering alkalinity with acid we want to lower but not remove alkalinity to a level where the acidity of the grist will do the rest of the alkalinity removal and pH lowering in the mash tun. Don't we?

Anyway, that's a moot (and admittedly pedantic ) point ... without cumbrianwolf (and us) knowing the make-up of his liquor, and he's not really told us what beers he's making either, it's (potentially) equally likely he may need to add alkalinity to his water ... they have some pretty soft water running off those fells up there and for all we know he may be brewing lots of stouts, porters and/or dark milds

Cheers, PhilB

[Mr. Dripping]

Hi Mr. D

Lowering the alkalinity with an acid treatment just happens also to lower the pH of the liquor.

... is that right? I think if you're adding enough acid to change the pH of your liquor then you've completely removed the alkalinity (buffering capacity) of that liquor and started to acidify it with the acid haven't you ... generally when lowering alkalinity with acid we want to lower but not remove alkalinity to a level where the acidity of the grist will do the rest of the alkalinity removal and pH lowering in the mash tun. Don't we?

Anyway, that's a moot (and admittedly pedantic ) point ... without cumbrianwolf (and us) knowing the make-up of his liquor, and he's not really told us what beers he's making either, it's (potentially) equally likely he may need to add alkalinity to his water ... they have some pretty soft water running off those fells up there and for all we know he may be brewing lots of stouts, porters and/or dark milds

Cheers, PhilB

Phil - you may be right there. Yes, the acid addition is to remove alkalinity.....understand the buffer system. However, I was under the impression that removing alkalinity would also lower the pH....have I got that wrong??

[cumbrianwolf]

Thank goodness for online live chats with the suppliers.

Analysis Typical Value UK/EU limit Units
Hardness Level Very Soft
Hardness Clarke 4.375 Clarke
Aluminium <3.72 200 µg Al/l
Calcium 17.8 mg Ca/l
Residual chlorine - Total 0.85 mg/l
Residual chlorine - Free 0.83 mg/l
Coliform bacteria 0 0 number/100ml
Colour <1.16 20 mg/l Pt/Co scale
Conductivity 166 2500 uS/cm at 20oC
Copper 0.0168 2 mg Cu/l
E.coli 0 0 number/100ml
Iron 12.1 200 µg Fe/l
Lead <0.295 10 µg Pb/l
Magnesium 4.64 mg Mg/l
Manganese <2.26 50 µg Mn/l
Nitrate <2.81 50 mg NO3/l
Sodium 14.7 200 mg Na/l
PH Avg 7.40

Now I have been working of the assumption that my water was in the acidic range of 6.0-6.8 as it has been in the past.
Here is a recipe I have produced not so long ago to help you. As for the type of beers I brew I would say most varieties but I am partial to a good strong stout.

Pale malt: 3.800kg
Crystal malt 120: 0.150g
Flaked Barley: 0.450g
Brown sugar: 0.250g
Cane sugar: 0.500g
Mash 90 min water additions of 1tsp calcium sulphate and 1/2tsp magnesium sulphate

Leaf Hops
East Kent gold: 40g 19.47IBU Boli 90 min
Fuggles: 45g 26.52IBU Boil 90 min
East Kent gold 15g soaked for last half hour of resting wort

Safale yeast

[PhilB]

Hi Mr. D

I was under the impression that removing alkalinity would also lower the pH....have I got that wrong??

... TBH, I'm not sure either ... I THOUGHT the acid was neutralised by the carbonates/bicarbonates and the carbonates/bicarbonate were neutralised by the acid and the pH was left the same, but I have liquor with pretty low alkalinity to start with and so I don't treat with acid and I've never seen the effects myself. Maybe you, or others who treat with acids, and have pH meters have? ... Hopefully Martin B or someone will be along to explain better later. Meanwhile ...

Hi cumbrianwolf
If you can re-open that chat session and ask your supplier for a measure of alkalinity, then that would help a lot ... make sure they tell you what they measure it as, alkalinity is a measure of a bunch of chemicals but they usually report it as the equivalent amount of one of them (maybe CaCo3, maybe just CO3, or HCO3 ... ) and you need to know the reporting units ... Do you get your water from United Utilities (like me) all the way up there? If so the people on the phones/online chat don't have alkalinity data, but if you request it they will get it back from the people in the labs and send it to you (I've requested via email from their website and usually get it back the next day) ... they usually report Total Alkalinity as equivalent amount of CaCO3

Cheers, PhilB

[cumbrianwolf]

Here is the link to the full analysis I hope that helps: http://www.unitedutilities.com/waterquality.aspx

[PhilB]

Hi cumbrianwolf

No unfortunately not, the United Utilities water quality report doesn't include alkalinity ... you have to ask them for it, but so long as you're a customer of theirs they will get it for you ... push the "Contact Us" button and send them an email from there, giving your postcode and address details, telling them that you're a home brewer and asking for the alkalinity of your water, ask for "Total Alkalinity as CaCO3"

My guess is that with "Hardness Level Very Soft" your alkalinity may well also be very low ... and your beers may be ending up giving you similar experiences as when drinking "some cheap dilute orange squash" because they're ending up too acidic, like cheap squash often is ... but without that alkalinity information, it's just a guess

Cheers, PhilB

[Mr. Dripping]

Phil is right.....you need that alkalinity figure.
I would agree with him though in that your water is likely to be low in alkalinity and when making dark beers this can lead to some very unpleasant tastes.....the dark malts are acidic and will lower the pH far too much if there is little or no alkalinity there to buffer against.
My guess is you will actually need to add alkalinity to your water for dark beers.
It will be interesting to see the alkalinity of your source water.

[cumbrianwolf]

Back in conversation with them and the requested information is: Will call me back in 24 hours so will have to await such details. I agree it has to be the water but I have never took it too far as in my previous locations the water was excellent for lager brewing and I have made copious amounts of pilsners etc, plus with some chemical additions a nice stout or two but hear I cannot make nothing that I would deem worthwhile for my skills.

Thanks to all and I shall update you all soon and find out where we stand!