Pumping beer from fermenter?

[inthedark]

Hi, I managed to injure my shoulder some time back, most likely caused by lifting heavy buckets of liquid up to counter height or more in the course of several brew days. I'm looking at how to remove all requirement for heavy lifting from the process.

I can get to the point of fermentation using pumps now, but my fermenting fridge is not much higher than floor level. I was wondering whether it's ok to pump beer out of the fermenter into a bottling bucket or keg at a higher level? Has anyone done this? I'm thinking that pumping a carbonated liquid would cause a lot of foaming, and wonder about oxidisation too.

Any other ideas welcome!

Thanks

Paul

[orlando]

Hi, I managed to injure my shoulder some time back, most likely caused by lifting heavy buckets of liquid up to counter height or more in the course of several brew days. I'm looking at how to remove all requirement for heavy lifting from the process.

I can get to the point of fermentation using pumps now, but my fermenting fridge is not much higher than floor level. I was wondering whether it's ok to pump beer out of the fermenter into a bottling bucket or keg at a higher level? Has anyone done this? I'm thinking that pumping a carbonated liquid would cause a lot of foaming, and wonder about oxidisation too.

Any other ideas welcome!

Thanks

Paul

Pumping could introduce enough oxygen to accelerate staling and the extra risk of introducing an infection is also present. Might be impractical but can you raise the fridge, lot easier to get FV's in an out too?

[kev93_10]

How is it carbonated coming from the fermenter?

K


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[inthedark]

Pumping could introduce enough oxygen to accelerate staling and the extra risk of introducing an infection is also present. Might be impractical but can you raise the fridge, lot easier to get FV's in an out too?

Unfortunately not, it's a fridge-freezer so a bit too tall to raise up.

How is it carbonated coming from the fermenter?

OK, maybe carbonated is a bit too strong a word, but it has some co2 by then? Although when I think of it, that's not an issue when filling by gravity so probably wouldn't affect it using a pump. Just the oxidisation.

[fordpopular]

should be fine, so long as the pump and hoses are sterilised first.... at work we move beer from fermenters to conditioning tanks and transport tanks with a pump its the only way.

[Kev888]

You could look at peristaltic pumps, the kind of thing they use for blood etc in hospitals. Even the big ones tend to be 'very' slow, but if you aren't in a hurry that also means they are gentle and they are top notch for easily disinfecting; I once had one that I think was for emptying condensation from commercial air conditioning systems.

Another possibility would be the type of flo-jet (diaphragm?) pumps used to serve beer over long beer lines in pubs, unfortunately they tend to be air powered but its not far from their intended purpose so they may well be suitable. I'd imagine that if you were worried about oxidation you could purge the pump and lines with CO2 before commencing.

Just ideas though, I've never tried either for doing this - I always pumped up to the fermenter and racked by gravity instead.

[orlando]

Another idea is can you use positive pressure in the FV, if so you could pressurise with CO2? My conicals allow me to do this but they have a very efficient seal. I have a couple of old plastic fermenting buckets that could achieve a seal too but never tried it with them, might be worth an experiment if you have a CO2 based kegging system.

Kev, could you power a flow jet with CO2 rather than air?

[inthedark]

If a pump and the hoses are flooded with beer, where does the oxygen come from to oxidise it?

[Kev888]

Kev, could you power a flow jet with CO2 rather than air?

Yes certainly, many pubs do (or at least did), perhaps not ideal environmentally so I understand there was a push for using air compressors instead. Though on a home brew scale it may well be a contender, probably using little/no more gas than the positive pressure approach that you mentioned.

TBH I'd overlooked pushing out by pressure, I really like the method as its so simple - nothing much extra to clean etc - but in my head its normally only used with (expensive) stainless conical fermenters. However, there are people who ferment in cornies and sankey kegs, a bit narrow necked to my way of thinking but probably any pressurisable vessel would work if suitable as a fermenter. Not sure how far you could get with plastic, but maybe high enough for kegging/bottling - there are some fairly chunky HDPE barrels and fermenters about. Would need care though, wouldn't want to over-egg it and cause it to explode!

[orlando]

If a pump and the hoses are flooded with beer, where does the oxygen come from to oxidise it?

Pump cavitation?

[Eric]

If a pump and the hoses are flooded with beer, where does the oxygen come from to oxidise it?

Pump cavitation?

Cavitation won't introduce oxygen that isn't already present.

Pressure reduction, which happens on the lift side of an aerofoil section or the trailing edge of an impeller, allows dissolved gas to escape a liquid being pumped. Bubbles so formed create turbulence which can cause cavities to form on the pump blade, hence the name cavitation.

I don't overly worry about oxygen getting into beer at this stage. Provided you intend the next stage to be a sealed secondary fermentation and the green beer contains sufficient live yeast and fermentables, just ensure there's no contamination by nasty living organisms so allowing the yeast to do what's necessary, which includes consuming oxygen.

[barneey]

Pushing beer out with a positive CO2 pressure is very simple if you have:- a supply of CO2 and a FV that can take a little pressure. I use it as my preferred means of getting the beer into a keg.

Reading the initial post the word "bucket" is mentioned so would assume that these are plastic. If that is the case the only experiment I would try, again if you have a CO2 supply, would be to squirt (I do mean squirt) a LITTLE CO2 through say the airlock hole and see if the beer will run. This would also mean that a tap was required on the FV or an installed beer line through a separate hole in the lid.

Maybe a more simple way would be a syphon of some sort

[Fil]

I agree with the above a sanitised pump will be fine..

I dont see how any o2 can be introduced into a closed system, but the pump will agitate the beer which is saturated with co2 post fermentation and that agitation will shake out the co2.

to minimise co2 agitation out of suspension by the pump which may cause problems you could warm the beer up a little when finished and a few sharp raps with a wooden spoon to the bucket could shake more co2 out of suspension too.

if naturally conditioning the beer and you do try to reduce the co2 content of the beer prior to pumping take that into account when determining the mass of sugars you add.

personally i would give it a go as is and only consider co2 removal if the pump knocks so much co2 out that it kills the pump action and bubbles co2 back up into the FV.

[Kev888]

Just remembered in the past I used a scissor lift table with the FV on. I could fill it by gravity then raise the table before racking. They're expensive unless you can find a bargain but its another possibility that doesn't make any more work wrt cleaning/disinfecting etc. I daresay other types of lifts and hoists may be suitable too, though it would need to be able to cope safely.

[inthedark]

Hmm, just had a browse at scissor lifts and there are some relatively low priced ones around with enough capacity to lift a FV, but I probably don't have the space to store one of those. For now I think I'll rely on getting mates round to help with the lifting part and experiment with using the pump once I've got a few brews in stock to cushion any loss.