Beersmith question

[chris172]

If I want to add hops at the end to steep for 30mins I add them in the copper @80c so theoretically they shouldn't emit their bitterness... or do they??

If I enter 30mins for the steep time on the hop addition in Beersmith it lists an IBU figure but if I add it as '0' mins it doesn't.

Just wondered what you think... makes about 10 IBU difference with what I'm brewing at the moment.

TIA
Chris

[Aleman]

It can't be predicted with that amount of accuracy. In fact the bitterness contribution of late hops in the boil is pretty much complete guesswork as none of the models fit. . .

[Matt in Birdham]

I find Beersmith's handling of flameout/steeping additions a bit weird all round. For example, we know that there will be some utilisation above ~80c (that seems to be a generally accepted figure), obviously higher with temp. If you specify a steep time in BS, it will add some "approximation" of the IBU contribution, but it doesn't ask for temp - so this is necessarily rather vague. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, as far as I can tell it does not modify any pre-flameout additions ' IBUs when calculating the steep time IBUs. e.g. if I add I ton of hops at 1 minute, then these will be calculated as a 1 minute addition. If I then add further hops at flamout and specify a 10 minute steep, BS will add IBUs for that but won't adjust the 1 minutes addition, which presumably will still contribute during the steeping..

So in a nutshell, Aleman is right It's really a bit of guesswork, judgement and learning by experience.

Actually I was listening to Jamil on a podcast the other day when steeping/whirlpooling was being discussed, and as usual he was talking a lot of sense. He said if you want more hop flavour, just add more hops at flameout and if you want more aroma just add more dry-hops. He likes to chill immediately and there is some evidence that flavour compounds are released incredibly quickly at flameout temps. That would take some of the guesswork out of it and also make for a quicker brew day.

[chris172]

Thanks for the reply's.

I used to chill immediately and found the flameout hops did little to aroma and flavour so have tried a 30min steep adding them at around 75-80c so will see how it works.

[BrannigansLove]

I work on the approach that the wort needs to be hot enough to extract the oils within a reasonable timeframe, but cool enough to avoid adding to the bittering by isomerising the alpha acids. So I cool to 75-80c, and then bung them in for 30 minutes before I cool to pitching temps.

[Sadfield]

I find Beersmith's handling of flameout/steeping additions a bit weird all round. For example, we know that there will be some utilisation above ~80c (that seems to be a generally accepted figure), obviously higher with temp. If you specify a steep time in BS, it will add some "approximation" of the IBU contribution, but it doesn't ask for temp - so this is necessarily rather vague. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, as far as I can tell it does not modify any pre-flameout additions ' IBUs when calculating the steep time IBUs. e.g. if I add I ton of hops at 1 minute, then these will be calculated as a 1 minute addition. If I then add further hops at flamout and specify a 10 minute steep, BS will add IBUs for that but won't adjust the 1 minutes addition, which presumably will still contribute during the steeping..

So in a nutshell, Aleman is right It's really a bit of guesswork, judgement and learning by experience.

Actually I was listening to Jamil on a podcast the other day when steeping/whirlpooling was being discussed, and as usual he was talking a lot of sense. He said if you want more hop flavour, just add more hops at flameout and if you want more aroma just add more dry-hops. He likes to chill immediately and there is some evidence that flavour compounds are released incredibly quickly at flameout temps. That would take some of the guesswork out of it and also make for a quicker brew day.

Beersmith uses a default of 90c for steep calculations, which can be changed in the options.

IIRC in answer to a similar question on the Beersmith site, Brad explains that utilization drops off significantly as temperature decreases from 100c and as a result any further utilization of pre-flame out additions is negligible.

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[Aleman]

I've seen results from an experiment that shows that utilisation does not drop off anywhere near as fast as you would expect (Or Brad Suggests) until the wort hits around 80C. The Picobrew Zymatic never hits a proper boil and IIRC only reaches 97C but still gets good utilisation.

[Sadfield]

I've seen results from an experiment that shows that utilisation does not drop off anywhere near as fast as you would expect (Or Brad Suggests) until the wort hits around 80C. The Picobrew Zymatic never hits a proper boil and IIRC only reaches 97C but still gets good utilisation.

Most probably. I was merely stating (as far as i recall) the thinking behind the way Beersmith does the calculations.

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[IronBlue]

Good question and answers, I used to make this 'mistake' all the time. As Matt points out - it is also about the last minute additions before flame out, they get affected too if you are steeping at flame out near 100C for any length of time. And the steeping calculation in Beersmith can make a huge difference to the recipe IBUs for a late hopbomb recipe, which is all theoretical....

I always cool straight away now to about 75C before I put my steep hops in, and then steep for about 30 minutes, setting the steep time to zero in Beersmith so no IBUs get contributed to the recipe. That is a bit of a recipe fudge though, being able to set the steep temperature would be ideal, but I can't find that option (Sadfield?) only a percentage factor....

[Matt in Birdham]

Beersmith uses a default of 90c for steep calculations, which can be changed in the options.

IIRC in answer to a similar question on the Beersmith site, Brad explains that utilization drops off significantly as temperature decreases from 100c and as a result any further utilization of pre-flame out additions is negligible.

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That's useful info - cheers. 90c seems an odd default though, since most probably either chuck in at flame out or cool to lower. Like most on this thread I cool to 80c for my steep, which I put in as 0 minutes in BS since I assume no utilisation. I do however also normally add a flameout addition and put a time in BS for this - but this never really gets below about 97C over a 10-20 minute stand, so I am probably underestimating the utilisation.

Depending on the recipe, though, probably as a big (or bigger) a factor is why doesn't BS extend the contact time of previously added hops once it "knows" you are steeping? As Ironblue says, a lot of recipes have big late additions in the last 10 minutes or so which will clearly still be getting utilised during the steep. I think I might start skipping the flameout stand and just increase the 80c stand amount to avoid confusion here.

[Aleman]

I think I can understand the theory behind it. If Brad (as Sadfield may remember) assumes that the utilisation drops off significantly once you have switched off the heat, then the effective increase in IBU from hops added earlier is zero.

The whole hop utilisation dynamic in the boil, and after is incredibly complex and frankly I've come to the conclusion that it really isn't worth chasing, beyond getting a supposed IBU figure from my bittering hops - using a fixed utilsation percentage, and not worrying about late additions and steep hops. There is no way to calculate these figures, using Tinseth appears to calculate the effects of a 5 minute Late addition . . . but that is not what Glen Tinseth modelled. As you use these formulae further and further outside their effective model you introduce the potential for significant errors to creep in.

I'm going back to quoting mg/l alpha acid units for my recipes, that will be a 'constant' (*) known value that people can convert to whatever 'calculated' IBU figure they use


(*) Assuming that the alpha on the packet is actually the alpha of the hops - it may be, or it may well not be . . . now you want to talk about a 'accurate' IBU calculator

[Matt in Birdham]

If Brad (as Sadfield may remember) assumes that the utilisation drops off significantly once you have switched off the heat, then the effective increase in IBU from hops added earlier is zero.

I don't think he does though - at least, that is not what BS shows. E.g. I have a recipe up now with 30g of 10% AA hops and a 10 minute steep, which is shown as 7 IBU - roughly half what is calculated for a 10 minute boil. And if he really is using 90C (which I find odd, actually), then we can assume that his calcs would show rather more at, say, 97C, which is a much more realistic temp to hold after flame out with no chilling over 10 mins. Whether those calculations are anywhere near what happens is another matter, of course.

[Sadfield]

BS assumes that all hops added before flame out are spent by flame out and provide no further IBU contribution during the lower temperature steep. Hops added after flame out have a 50% utilization for a 90c steep.

Found the thread I was referring to. http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=9549.0


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[Matt in Birdham]

Good link Sadfield, thanks. Sounds like the same thing has been discussed before, and that, say, <20 minute additions could continue to have quite a significant effect during a hot stand. I've had a few beers that I considered over bitter recently, and I think my flameout stand is the source, even if it is hard to work out exactly what is going on. Safer and easier I think to do all bittering during the boil (including late boil) and chill immediately to 80c for any stands. Putting it like that, I'm struggling to understand why I have even been doing a 10-20 minute stand without chilling recently, and I wonder if there is even anything to gain from standing at >90c that you can't get from late boil/80c additions?