Damson Porter/old ale help

[Cheesey]

Hi Folks,

Been a while since I asked a question, been steady brewing but had to reduce the number I do.

I have damsons in the freezer for gin etc, but fancy doing an experimental brew ready for Autumn. I’ve read most of the articles and there are a lot of people saying it was not very good. Damsons are sour. So I was wondering what is the best basic recipe/technique to keep residual sweetness from the malt.

I had an idea that a version of Fullers 1845 which is malty and sweet, with damsons might be a good starting point.

What is the best mash temp for this I was thinking 65’C
Yeast , something low attenuating, or even a saison to push the ester fruit.

I was thinking of using my pressure cooker to sterilise the damsons. But when to add. In the boil say 15 mins at the end, or half way through the ferment. Or both!

Any thoughts and experiences shared would be most gratefully received

Cheers C

[Robwalkeragain]

Later the better for any fruit to be honest. The plum porters you taste in pubs are made with an ice cream syrup so I wouldn’t expect that result...
Malty and sweet sounds good! Saisons don’t do sweet at all. Choose a low attenuating yeast like windsor and I’m sure it’ll be great.

[PeeBee]

No experienced suggestions, I've not brewed a fruit beer yet, but I can comment on the brewing technique:

If you are planning on residual sweetness (and higher "body") 65C seems a bit low. "Normal" would be 66-67C, and high body 69C (I do go up to 74C for very special circumstances). Saison yeasts can be happy drying a beer further than you'd think possible, 1.002-3 is often quoted, I've had 0.998. I can't imagine Saison yeasts coming up with what you hope to achieve. For 1845 (a favourite clone of mine) I don't use mash temperature to influence FG much and mash at 66-67C ("normal"), but I do use a particularly low attenuating yeast; Fermentis S-33 (I haven't been able to come close with liquid yeasts). S-33 seems to finish about 1.018 for me (about 65% attenuation), but will attenuate further with time (months of time that is).

I have used both S-33 and 74C mashing in the afore mentioned "special circumstances" (i.e. "low-alcohol" beers) and get attenuation of about 30-35%

[Blackaddler]

I used damsons in a porter some years ago. What I didn't realise was that there is a hell of a lot of pectin in damsons.

Pectin is great for making jam, [which is what is do with damsons now], but not so good for beer. That brew looked like mud. It took a couple of years, at least, to clear enough to be drinkable.

I found out later, that I could have used pectolase to reduce the pectin.

https://homebrewanswers.com/what-does-pectic-enzyme-do/

Nice beer, eventually.

[Cheesey]

Thanks all for the input.

Yes Blackadder I read your post. I’m a wine maker as well and used to pectinase , so will do following your post (2013 I think!)

Peebee , I am on my second Saison,and yes I get ridiculously low SG , my resent was 1003 in 5 days! Bottled it without priming ( never prime I hate fizz), 3 months later I am still waiting for some carbonation!

The Saison thinking is even though it is fully fermented it still has a good body, and has retained it’s sweetness.

I mashed it at 65’C, initial 2 day at 19’C, then 21’C for 2 days then 25’c for 2 days.

All good advice though. I think the yeast will be the key.... Anyone else?

[Jocky]

I think with the sourness of damsons you want to leave residual sweetness in your beer, not just body. Stouts would be the natural option for this reason.

Having said that, I think the saison is a great idea. I'm seeing a lot of sour saisons popping up, so adding a sour fruit should work.

[Cheesey]

Update, finally got a chance (hopefully) to use my Damsons up, probably this Sunday. Going for a variation on the Sweet Stout recipe in How To Brew Better Beer. Uses Lactose and a cold steep method for sweetness and reduced dryness, had to modify some of the malt as Malt Miller did’t have all the exotic US ones! Hopefully this will be a good base for the Damsons.

Will make a pressure cooked damson purée (approx 2Kg including stones)and add this to the FV, but when would you do it. I’m using ESB yeast from Wyeast probably at 21’C, I would expect near ferment between 5-7 days. I’m guessing you would aerate again, but I’m always a bit hesitant at the late stage to introducing a wild yeast. (I just have a lid on my 75L FV, in the Frooker, no airlock)
So I’d rather add it a bit sooner around day2 . Also how long would you leave it in there and would you crash cool and leave it to infuse some more.
And finally when would you add the pectinase?, would you pitch it with the Damsons, I’m guessing it would get denatured if added to the Wort.
Any advice

Cheers

C