Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)
- Eric
- Even further under the Table
- Posts: 2918
- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
- Location: Sunderland.
Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)
So, following the first post in this thread, and likely upsetting PeeBee's applecart, sorry, yesterday I inverted some sugar as the last homemade supplies went into my latest brew, an attempt at Lorimer's Best Scotch. The following details that process.
There's economy in scale, so this time 2Kg of Tate and Lyle Granulated Cane Sugar was added to 950g of tapwater treated with acid (hydrochloric in my case) to eliminate all alkalinity, that is pH<4.4. The mixture was stirred and heated and as it was approaching simmering point, the sugar could be seen to be nearly, but distinctly not, fully in solution. More of my hydrochloric acid was added at this point, the equivalent of about 2mL of AMS/CRS to lower pH and speed up the rate of inversion, and was immediately obvious as the mixture was stirred to become totally clear.
Invert sugar is more soluble than sucrose, so when a partially oversaturated sucrose solution inverts to fructose and dextrose, all is dissolved and the liquid clarifies.
After 15 minutes of gentle simmering the solution had gone from colourless to a very pale straw colour, and half was poured into another pan, both with gentle heat to maintain a simmer together will occasional stirring. To one 110g of demerara sugar was added and to the other 110g of Tate and Lyle Black Treacle. Both were simmered for another 10 minutes and stirred, then allowed to cool with a gram or so (no more) sodium bicarbonate gently added to neutralise excess acid.
No prize for guessing which is which, but the pale will be used as #1 and the dark as #3 and a mix of the two for #2. These do not rank as highly for me as Ragus' does, but as a Kg bag of T&L in B&M this morning was 95p, and can certainly prove its worth in beer.
There's economy in scale, so this time 2Kg of Tate and Lyle Granulated Cane Sugar was added to 950g of tapwater treated with acid (hydrochloric in my case) to eliminate all alkalinity, that is pH<4.4. The mixture was stirred and heated and as it was approaching simmering point, the sugar could be seen to be nearly, but distinctly not, fully in solution. More of my hydrochloric acid was added at this point, the equivalent of about 2mL of AMS/CRS to lower pH and speed up the rate of inversion, and was immediately obvious as the mixture was stirred to become totally clear.
Invert sugar is more soluble than sucrose, so when a partially oversaturated sucrose solution inverts to fructose and dextrose, all is dissolved and the liquid clarifies.
After 15 minutes of gentle simmering the solution had gone from colourless to a very pale straw colour, and half was poured into another pan, both with gentle heat to maintain a simmer together will occasional stirring. To one 110g of demerara sugar was added and to the other 110g of Tate and Lyle Black Treacle. Both were simmered for another 10 minutes and stirred, then allowed to cool with a gram or so (no more) sodium bicarbonate gently added to neutralise excess acid.
No prize for guessing which is which, but the pale will be used as #1 and the dark as #3 and a mix of the two for #2. These do not rank as highly for me as Ragus' does, but as a Kg bag of T&L in B&M this morning was 95p, and can certainly prove its worth in beer.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.
Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)
You can't do that. Apples are out of season, and I'm a stickler for such things. So, there's nowt in the applecart to upset.

Anyway, I'm not arguing with what you're doing. I still don't see the point of all that "inverting" business, but quite accept people will do as they please with the "base" sugar. You are not caramelising sugar syrups for hours on end which is what will wind me up!
But I have been trawling through this thread looking for the Invert Sugar formulation I came up with (for making some more beer ... I'm running out!). I assembled this list of my "key moments" (for me; basically "bookmarks" for me that might baffle some as to why I include it, but the red one is the "Invert" emulations recipes I couldn't find):
Brown Malt
Summary
Standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants
Summary (again: THBF)
Summary
*** "Invert" Emulations ***
Qtrs and cwts mix-up
Review
I do need to update these Invert Sugar emulations to be a bit more "generic". There's not much point trying to copy Ragus output as they were just one (the last remaining) example amongst a host of other manufacturers that either don't exist, or don't produce "brewer's invert", no more. The Muscovado sugars I use are a bit too variable to pretend I'm creating Ragus clones anyhow. But the Ragus "baseline" has been most useful to establish my own believable range of recipes.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Downloads are not available while they undergo enhancement and modification ... 1/1/2025
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Downloads are not available while they undergo enhancement and modification ... 1/1/2025
Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)
Crikey, I didn't 'arf make those "Invert Sugar" formulations complicated! To simplify them:
BASE SUGAR
I used Billington's "Golden Castor Sugar" and/or "Dextrose" (aka. glucose or "corn sugar"). I used all dextrose as base or 20% of total (like Ragus) ... it ferments easier and quicker but may have unknown implications?
You could use ordinary granulated white sugar, or, if you must, even baker's clear invert syrup, or make your own neutral invert syrup base (see "Eric's" post above). Don't use Golden Syrup, it's quite strongly caramelised.
This "base" is only fermentables, we get on to flavours next (the key was subtle use of flavoured sugars).
FLAVOURING SUGAR
(As a percentage of total sugar. If using a syrup as "base" make allowance for water content).
Using Billington's "Light Muscovado Sugar". Demerara, Molasses syrup, black treacle, "generic" brown sugar, etc. were found to be too variable to use predictably. I personally tested these using the lower figure in the range (sugar purchased mid 2022).
Invert Sugar "No.1" ... 12 - 15% Light Muscovado Sugar
Invert Sugar "No.2" ... 24 - 30% Light Muscovado Sugar
Invert Sugar "No.3" ... 48 - 60% Light Muscovado Sugar*
* Billington's "Dark Muscovado Sugar" preferred; see next.
Invert Sugar "No.3" ... 17 - 20% Dark Muscovado Sugar
Invert Sugar "No.4" ... 85 - 90% Dark Muscovado Sugar
Avoid "No.4". It was rarely used, and the above formulation is probably too "nice" (the reality was it was by far the "roughest" of these sugars used). I used 60% Billington's "Molasses Sugar" in the trials for "No.4", but that sugar is less easy to find.
If you want more information, find it in the rest of the thread!
BASE SUGAR
I used Billington's "Golden Castor Sugar" and/or "Dextrose" (aka. glucose or "corn sugar"). I used all dextrose as base or 20% of total (like Ragus) ... it ferments easier and quicker but may have unknown implications?
You could use ordinary granulated white sugar, or, if you must, even baker's clear invert syrup, or make your own neutral invert syrup base (see "Eric's" post above). Don't use Golden Syrup, it's quite strongly caramelised.
This "base" is only fermentables, we get on to flavours next (the key was subtle use of flavoured sugars).
FLAVOURING SUGAR
(As a percentage of total sugar. If using a syrup as "base" make allowance for water content).
Using Billington's "Light Muscovado Sugar". Demerara, Molasses syrup, black treacle, "generic" brown sugar, etc. were found to be too variable to use predictably. I personally tested these using the lower figure in the range (sugar purchased mid 2022).
Invert Sugar "No.1" ... 12 - 15% Light Muscovado Sugar
Invert Sugar "No.2" ... 24 - 30% Light Muscovado Sugar
Invert Sugar "No.3" ... 48 - 60% Light Muscovado Sugar*
* Billington's "Dark Muscovado Sugar" preferred; see next.
Invert Sugar "No.3" ... 17 - 20% Dark Muscovado Sugar
Invert Sugar "No.4" ... 85 - 90% Dark Muscovado Sugar
Avoid "No.4". It was rarely used, and the above formulation is probably too "nice" (the reality was it was by far the "roughest" of these sugars used). I used 60% Billington's "Molasses Sugar" in the trials for "No.4", but that sugar is less easy to find.
If you want more information, find it in the rest of the thread!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Downloads are not available while they undergo enhancement and modification ... 1/1/2025
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Downloads are not available while they undergo enhancement and modification ... 1/1/2025
Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)
Eric threw me some links to Ragus which might also interest some folk. That they are not talking about "Brewer's Invert Sugar" which might surprise some folk, but despite being the last manufacturer of "Brewer's Invert Sugar" it only amounts to a tiny fraction of their sales (breweries use all sorts of other sugar products now, sucrose - not invert - based!).
Muscovado Sugar
Light Muscovado Sugar
Dark Muscovado Sugar
This one on Golden Syrup is interesting too, even if not obviously connected. They are fabricating an "emulation" of that too (like they do for "Brewer's Invert Sugar") and are fibbing a little saying the recipe hasn't changed in 150 years. Note this stuff, unlike "Brewer's Invert Sugar", is "caramelised" (video):
Golden Syrup
(The video especially).
There're loads of other interesting sugary stuffs on that site!
Muscovado Sugar
Light Muscovado Sugar
Dark Muscovado Sugar
This one on Golden Syrup is interesting too, even if not obviously connected. They are fabricating an "emulation" of that too (like they do for "Brewer's Invert Sugar") and are fibbing a little saying the recipe hasn't changed in 150 years. Note this stuff, unlike "Brewer's Invert Sugar", is "caramelised" (video):
Golden Syrup
(The video especially).
There're loads of other interesting sugary stuffs on that site!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Downloads are not available while they undergo enhancement and modification ... 1/1/2025
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Downloads are not available while they undergo enhancement and modification ... 1/1/2025
Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)
Tbh I thought invert sugar was just sugar, water & an ammount of acid. I use citric (1g/1kg/1L off the top)
I also make a jar full of viscous uninverted chocolate syrup for bait from just white granulated.
I also make a jar full of viscous uninverted chocolate syrup for bait from just white granulated.
- Eric
- Even further under the Table
- Posts: 2918
- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
- Location: Sunderland.
Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)
Indeed there are, some of which date back to when their sales to breweries were greater than today. Some seem to have been removed, but not all, and if any have links to brewing invert on the Ragus site that are accessible but not currently indexed, could you please post those links?
This is one I can't currently find, although someone might come straight back to show how I'd missed it.
https://www.ragus.co.uk/brewers-sugar-block/
This paper from 120 years ago, when considered in context with more recent technology and equipment as seen on the Ragus site, might highlight some misconceptions posted on Home Brew Forums from time to time.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epd ... .tb00086.x
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.
-
- Even further under the Table
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:10 pm
- Location: Christchurch, Dorset
Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)
All the time in the world...but not for fishing. Rat bait.
Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)
Rat bait? I use a ready prepared grain based one. The blue dye makes for an interesting hue to any beers I use it in.
Watch the video in that "Golden Syrup" link I posted about invert syrup (five or so posts back) ... it is just water sugar and acid (but they use horrendously strong acid to speed things along). It messes up some thoughts I'd had of how Golden Syrup is made, but sugar refining has changed a lot and the original materials are just not made any longer. So, they fabricate Golden Syrup and the like (e.g. Brewer's Invert Sugars) out of what they do have.
Learning "partial inversion" is now just fabricated is a bit of a let-down
Watch the video in that "Golden Syrup" link I posted about invert syrup (five or so posts back) ... it is just water sugar and acid (but they use horrendously strong acid to speed things along). It messes up some thoughts I'd had of how Golden Syrup is made, but sugar refining has changed a lot and the original materials are just not made any longer. So, they fabricate Golden Syrup and the like (e.g. Brewer's Invert Sugars) out of what they do have.
Learning "partial inversion" is now just fabricated is a bit of a let-down

Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Downloads are not available while they undergo enhancement and modification ... 1/1/2025
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Downloads are not available while they undergo enhancement and modification ... 1/1/2025
Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)
Video, will do. Thought I might have missed the point.
The rats seem to have become resistant to the blocks I use. New recipe required.
The rats seem to have become resistant to the blocks I use. New recipe required.
Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)
The driving reason why I split my "historical" shenanigans about the mid-19th century (i.e. with this "late 19th Century and 20th Century" thread) was the dramatic changes to UK beer taking place at that time. The old "brown beer" brewing methods had reached their peak with "Porter" and were giving way to lighter beers. The most popular being "X-Ale" or "Mild Ales" (they were pale, even by WWII they were generally no darker than darkish amber). I wanted to capture and understand (better) the reasons for that without muddling it all up with the Porter years and earlier.
Certainly, more information available (like from Ron Pattinson's digging about in the brewery/library archives), more significant wars (humans were getting much better at killing each other), more taxes impacting beer (to pay for the wars), advances in creating malts for beer (the subject of this post!), more advances in creating sugars for beer (a major subject in this thread so far), ... any other reasons?
So. Malts. I'd started this in the "Ales and Beers (17th, 18th and a bit of 19th Century)" thread but it was wandering well outside the subject (time period) of that thread. A description concerning "Amber Malt" on Crisp's Website was causing me confusion (mainly by the way it referenced "roasting", "kilning" and "white malt"):
Other maltsters undoubtably use subtly different methods. It certainly clobbers the idea I still had that maltsters continue to use the "traditional" rotating kilns to produce "Black Malt" which is what they were designed for way back in 1817. More to the point, it drives a further wedge into to the difference between modern amber and brown malts and the old amber and brown malts (used before the 20th C.).
For "White Malt" (and "East India Malt", although I've never come across mention of it) I'll continue to take the recommendations in the Durden Park Beer Circle's booklet "Old British Beers ...", and use 50/50 Lager and Pale malts (or even the "Extra Pale" British malt varieties). Their descriptions of homemade amber and brown malts are surprisingly similar to the process described by Crisp. I still don't see the "Brown Malt" instructions being of value for 19th C. and earlier recipes, but the "diastatic amber malt" instructions should fit okay for this: Let's Brew 1867 Reid Export Treble Stout (that's an interesting recipe with 57% Diastatic Amber Malt!).
Anyway, enough conjecture for a Monday morning. I'm off out in this spring sunshine.
[EDIT: The "East India Malt" (aka, in the booklet, "white malt") is described as EBC 4.0. Hence a 50/50 (1:1) mix of lager (EBC 3.0) and pale malts (EBC 5.0). But all the pale malts I use are EBC 6.5. May need some adjustment to the proportions? But I've suggested using "extra light pale" at EBC 3.5 as a direct substitute; they wouldn't have had access to "extra light" in the 1970s.]
Certainly, more information available (like from Ron Pattinson's digging about in the brewery/library archives), more significant wars (humans were getting much better at killing each other), more taxes impacting beer (to pay for the wars), advances in creating malts for beer (the subject of this post!), more advances in creating sugars for beer (a major subject in this thread so far), ... any other reasons?
So. Malts. I'd started this in the "Ales and Beers (17th, 18th and a bit of 19th Century)" thread but it was wandering well outside the subject (time period) of that thread. A description concerning "Amber Malt" on Crisp's Website was causing me confusion (mainly by the way it referenced "roasting", "kilning" and "white malt"):
This, I've concluded, isn't Crisp trying to redefine "kilning" and "roasting" of malt, but how they define the processes they use to create different malts. The more "normal" methods drying and kilning the diastatic "base" malts, such as in rotating cylinder kilns. And the quite different methods of creating coloured and "speciality" malts in "column" roasters. The malt is first prepared (dried and lightly kilned) to create a very pale malt which they describe as "white malt" before colouring it in roasting "columns". Of which "Amber Malt" is the lightest in colour (the roasters destroy all the enzymes too).This is the palest malt made using a roasting technique. After conventional kilning, the malt is dry and pale in colour hence it is known as “white malt”. It is transferred to our Speciality Malt Plant and passes through the roasting column where the flavour is transformed through the application of heat. The temperatures used through the column determine the colour and flavour of the roasted malt.
Other maltsters undoubtably use subtly different methods. It certainly clobbers the idea I still had that maltsters continue to use the "traditional" rotating kilns to produce "Black Malt" which is what they were designed for way back in 1817. More to the point, it drives a further wedge into to the difference between modern amber and brown malts and the old amber and brown malts (used before the 20th C.).
For "White Malt" (and "East India Malt", although I've never come across mention of it) I'll continue to take the recommendations in the Durden Park Beer Circle's booklet "Old British Beers ...", and use 50/50 Lager and Pale malts (or even the "Extra Pale" British malt varieties). Their descriptions of homemade amber and brown malts are surprisingly similar to the process described by Crisp. I still don't see the "Brown Malt" instructions being of value for 19th C. and earlier recipes, but the "diastatic amber malt" instructions should fit okay for this: Let's Brew 1867 Reid Export Treble Stout (that's an interesting recipe with 57% Diastatic Amber Malt!).
Anyway, enough conjecture for a Monday morning. I'm off out in this spring sunshine.
[EDIT: The "East India Malt" (aka, in the booklet, "white malt") is described as EBC 4.0. Hence a 50/50 (1:1) mix of lager (EBC 3.0) and pale malts (EBC 5.0). But all the pale malts I use are EBC 6.5. May need some adjustment to the proportions? But I've suggested using "extra light pale" at EBC 3.5 as a direct substitute; they wouldn't have had access to "extra light" in the 1970s.]
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Downloads are not available while they undergo enhancement and modification ... 1/1/2025
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Downloads are not available while they undergo enhancement and modification ... 1/1/2025
Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)
Historically were British beers ever brewed without boiling?
Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)
I suspect it depends how far back you go...
I've read that the limitation for many early brewers was availability of vessels in which to boil which needed to be made from metal which was highly priced (or even prized). This led to "stone beers" where hot stones were added to heat up the (wooden) vessel full of liquor or raw ales which were not boiled. That said, what I've read talks about these sorts of beers being made in continental Europe, especially the Nordic and Baltic states.
Maybe we Brits had better availability of metal and better metalworkers meaning we had easier access to vessels suitable for boiling over fires?
I've read that the limitation for many early brewers was availability of vessels in which to boil which needed to be made from metal which was highly priced (or even prized). This led to "stone beers" where hot stones were added to heat up the (wooden) vessel full of liquor or raw ales which were not boiled. That said, what I've read talks about these sorts of beers being made in continental Europe, especially the Nordic and Baltic states.
Maybe we Brits had better availability of metal and better metalworkers meaning we had easier access to vessels suitable for boiling over fires?
Fermenting: Cherry lambic
Conditioning: English IPA/Bretted English IPA, Munich Helles, straight lambic
Drinking: Munich Dunkel, Helles Bock, Orval clone, Impy stout, Porter 2, Hazelweiss 2024, historic London Porter
Planning: Kozel dark (ish),and more!
Conditioning: English IPA/Bretted English IPA, Munich Helles, straight lambic
Drinking: Munich Dunkel, Helles Bock, Orval clone, Impy stout, Porter 2, Hazelweiss 2024, historic London Porter
Planning: Kozel dark (ish),and more!
Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)
I've only attempted to go back to about mid-17th C. (1650 - UK Civil War) and I've since bounced back to the 19th/20th C. But going back that far, brewing was well on the way to being "industrialised" (less "brew your own") and most was turned out as "beer", not unhopped "ale". The processors at that time seemed to involve boiling, especially to incorporate the new fangled "hops".
So, my view would be: Beers with no boil? I'm sure it probably happened, but it would be very unusual. Ale (unhopped) without boiling? That may well have happened, but you may have to look earlier, like before the 16th C. to get examples?
The earliest credible reports I've found is of Henry VIII's sailors being supplied beer because it kept longer on-board ship than (unhopped) ales. I would imagine if keeping was so important that hops were preferred, they wouldn't have not been boiling! The point being .... if back then they knew hops helped to keep ale/beer longer, they certainly knew boiling ensured the resulting ale/beer kept longer.
As "Cobnut" said, there are Nordic/Baltic examples of "raw" ales bandied about (not hopped, Juniper seems to get mentioned lots). One had a name ... began with "S" and seemed/sounded like a Japanese word to me!
From what I've gathered; "beer" does indicate a hopped drink, whereas "ale" may be either (hopped or unhopped). Mainly due to most people not having heard of or seen hops, let alone grown them to put them in ale or beer. The Continentals beat us to that idea and imported the idea to the UK (about 15th C.) where it was met with a lot of resistance!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Downloads are not available while they undergo enhancement and modification ... 1/1/2025
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Downloads are not available while they undergo enhancement and modification ... 1/1/2025
Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)
I think the beer you are thinking of is Sahti
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