Hop Steeping - a debate

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gregorach
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Re: Hop Steeping - a debate

Post by gregorach » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:30 pm

alikocho wrote:
gregorach wrote: For comparison, the flash point of petrol is -43 C (note the minus sign there). I hope that no-one would suggest that an open container of petrol will rapidly evaporate to nothing at any temperature above that. Similarly, the flash point for ethanol is 16.6 C, but you can enjoy a dram at room temperature without worrying about all the alcohol evaporating away as you drink it.
But both will evaporate, right? And give off a smell from their aroma compounds, yes?

And how fast does gasoline evaporate at 80C? And ethanol?

It's worth bearing in mind (I suspect) that we are talking about tiny quantities of hop oils...
Yes, but there's a pretty big question as to how quickly this happens. And there's also the fact that we're talking about tiny quantities of hop oils dissolved (or suspended) in water, which, as I believe was noted earlier in the thread, alters the evaporation rate. You can't directly compare the behaviour of pure liquids to that of solutions - it's more complicated than that.

To be honest, I think we need less reasoning and more experimentation. Empirical facts trump all theory.
Cheers

Dunc

Dr. Dextrin

Re: Hop Steeping - a debate

Post by Dr. Dextrin » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:32 pm

alikocho wrote:
Dr. Dextrin wrote:
alikocho wrote:I believe there is a difference between flash point and boiling point.
Yes, flash point is where you can set fire to the vapour above the pure liquid in air. I don't think it has any particular relevance here.
Aside from the fact that the vapor is potentially being lost from a volatile oil? Which might well prove to be relevant here.
Well, flash point is related to the vapour pressure above the pure liquid, but we don't have a pure liquid, we have a very weak solution. The chemical bonds that hold the oil in solution will tend to reduce the vapour pressure of the oil above the solution and reduce the rate at which it is lost. Flash point is also related to the minimum concentration of vapour in air needed to combust, and that could be quite low. It's partly determined by the energy released by combustion. So oils, which release a lot of energy when burned (that's why they're used as fuels), will tend to have a low flash point just because of this.

You'll notice, for example, that although water is quite volatile (it boils well below many of the oils mentioned), it's remarkably difficult to set fire to and effectively has a very high flash point. However, it's quite possible (although I don't have the figures to be sure) that the vapour pressure of pure water could be higher than that of (say) pure humulene at 90C, given their respective boiling points. In that case, you'd have to be more worried about losing the water from your wort than the humulene!

So while there's a general tendency (when comparing liquids of the same type) for those with a lower flash point to be more volatile, it's only an indirect indication and doesn't really allow you to inter-compare the vapour pressures of dissimilar liquids, far less their ability to escape from solution.

To give a final example, petrol flashes at -43C, which is way below any of the flavour compounds we're considering here. But I think if you added some petrol to your wort, you'd be hard pressed to eliminate the resulting flavour just by leaving it to steep, even at 99.999C.

alikocho

Re: Hop Steeping - a debate

Post by alikocho » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:37 pm

weiht wrote:Ali, i reckon u lose at least 3L to hops and trub!!!
Sounds about right.

Capn Ahab

Re: Hop Steeping - a debate

Post by Capn Ahab » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:52 pm

Dr. Dextrin wrote:

To give a final example, petrol flashes at -43C, which is way below any of the flavour compounds we're considering here. But I think if you added some petrol to your wort, you'd be hard pressed to eliminate the resulting flavour just by leaving it to steep, even at 99.999C.
The fly in the ointment here is flavour thresholds. Could be ppm, could be ppb, so hard to make a comparison. On the empirical tip, fast chilling gives more aroma, and yes, so do more hops.

alikocho

Re: Hop Steeping - a debate

Post by alikocho » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:01 pm

Capn Ahab wrote:
Dr. Dextrin wrote:

To give a final example, petrol flashes at -43C, which is way below any of the flavour compounds we're considering here. But I think if you added some petrol to your wort, you'd be hard pressed to eliminate the resulting flavour just by leaving it to steep, even at 99.999C.
The fly in the ointment here is flavour thresholds. Could be ppm, could be ppb, so hard to make a comparison. On the empirical tip, fast chilling gives more aroma, and yes, so do more hops.
You also need to ask what is flashing off. With hops these are aromatic oils. I don't know if the same could be said for gasoline (although it is very pungent), or not and so using it as an example for a discussion on aroma and flavour might not really work (equally it might). My empirical take though, is that gasoline has a much stronger aroma profile than a hop oil...

Dr. Dextrin

Re: Hop Steeping - a debate

Post by Dr. Dextrin » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:42 pm

alikocho wrote:
Capn Ahab wrote:
Dr. Dextrin wrote:

To give a final example, petrol flashes at -43C, which is way below any of the flavour compounds we're considering here. But I think if you added some petrol to your wort, you'd be hard pressed to eliminate the resulting flavour just by leaving it to steep, even at 99.999C.
The fly in the ointment here is flavour thresholds. Could be ppm, could be ppb, so hard to make a comparison. On the empirical tip, fast chilling gives more aroma, and yes, so do more hops.
You also need to ask what is flashing off. With hops these are aromatic oils. I don't know if the same could be said for gasoline (although it is very pungent), or not and so using it as an example for a discussion on aroma and flavour might not really work (equally it might). My empirical take though, is that gasoline has a much stronger aroma profile than a hop oil...
Possibly you missed my point. The point is that *nothing* "flashes off". There is no such phenomenon, unless you apply a lighted match (not recommended). The petrol will just sit there in your wort and evaporate away very very slowly.

Oh, and stink!

Dr. Dextrin

Re: Hop Steeping - a debate

Post by Dr. Dextrin » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:55 pm

I think it's also worth pointing out that you can totally eliminate any loss of hop oils by evaporation (if that's in fact a problem) by sealing the vessel - assuming it's not actually boiling, of course.

This will allow the vapour pressure of any volatile component to build up in the head-space to the point where there are as many molecules going back into the liquid as there are coming out. You probably don't even need a very air-tight seal. Any lid that's good enough to prevent you smelling the wort will be keeping the volatiles in. Completely in, irrespective of temperature.

Capn Ahab

Re: Hop Steeping - a debate

Post by Capn Ahab » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:06 pm

Dr. Dextrin wrote:I think it's also worth pointing out that you can totally eliminate any loss of hop oils by evaporation (if that's in fact a problem) by sealing the vessel - assuming it's not actually boiling, of course.

This will allow the vapour pressure of any volatile component to build up in the head-space to the point where there are as many molecules going back into the liquid as there are coming out. You probably don't even need a very air-tight seal. Any lid that's good enough to prevent you smelling the wort will be keeping the volatiles in. Completely in, irrespective of temperature.
That sounds fanciful. In fact the debate seems to be getting esoteric and mad. There have been lots of good arguments for 'chuck and chill' posted, but very few (other than "that's how we always do it") arguments for leaving hops in hot wort longer than absolutely necessary.

alikocho

Re: Hop Steeping - a debate

Post by alikocho » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:13 pm

Dr. Dextrin wrote: Possibly you missed my point. The point is that *nothing* "flashes off". There is no such phenomenon, unless you apply a lighted match (not recommended). The petrol will just sit there in your wort and evaporate away very very slowly.

Oh, and stink!
No, I understood you. I was questioning the petrol as a comparison. I also wonder why so much of the literature, pro-brewers and hop processors talk about flashing off aroma compounds at temperatures if what you say is true. Could you point me at some references?

alikocho

Re: Hop Steeping - a debate

Post by alikocho » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:15 pm

Dr. Dextrin wrote:I think it's also worth pointing out that you can totally eliminate any loss of hop oils by evaporation (if that's in fact a problem) by sealing the vessel - assuming it's not actually boiling, of course.

This will allow the vapour pressure of any volatile component to build up in the head-space to the point where there are as many molecules going back into the liquid as there are coming out. You probably don't even need a very air-tight seal. Any lid that's good enough to prevent you smelling the wort will be keeping the volatiles in. Completely in, irrespective of temperature.
I'll buy into the notion that it stays in the can, but equilibrium still equals loss from the wort in this situation. And how long for that equilibrium to be achieved?

alikocho

Re: Hop Steeping - a debate

Post by alikocho » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:15 pm

Capn Ahab wrote:
Dr. Dextrin wrote:I think it's also worth pointing out that you can totally eliminate any loss of hop oils by evaporation (if that's in fact a problem) by sealing the vessel - assuming it's not actually boiling, of course.

This will allow the vapour pressure of any volatile component to build up in the head-space to the point where there are as many molecules going back into the liquid as there are coming out. You probably don't even need a very air-tight seal. Any lid that's good enough to prevent you smelling the wort will be keeping the volatiles in. Completely in, irrespective of temperature.
That sounds fanciful. In fact the debate seems to be getting esoteric and mad. There have been lots of good arguments for 'chuck and chill' posted, but very few (other than "that's how we always do it") arguments for leaving hops in hot wort longer than absolutely necessary.
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Re: Hop Steeping - a debate

Post by simple one » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:25 pm

So in summary, I think everyone can agree that for the ultimate hit for aroma and flavour from hops is dry hopping. There are cons, but if you don't mind the odd haze and sometimes excessive flavour and aroma then it's for you. Steeping can give a different effect and is slightly more convenient for time and process, but it doesn't get the same hit...

But there are different methods of pre fermentation late hopping which give different amounts of flavour and aroma. Which is what this thread is discussing..... The best way to get aroma and flavour in to the wort, prior to fermentation.

So I am taking it there is basically two opposing opinions.

1. Locking in hop aroma requires the heat to be dropped to fermentation temperature as quick as possible. So as not to evaporate the volatiles off. A hot steep would have a negative effect on aroma.

2. Steeping needs time for oils to get in to solution. Increasing heat decreases the time. With 70-80C being preferred because its in the Goldilocks zone. Not to hot, and not to cold.

Is this a fair assessment of where the two camps are? If so I feel a proper experiment coming on.

(edit delete a loose sentence!)

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Re: Hop Steeping - a debate

Post by Befuddler » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:18 pm

Well I've been doing the 80c steep for ages, and I've been continually disappointed in my hop flavour and aroma, considering the sheer amount of hops I've been chucking in.

Today I'm brewing a recipe quite similar to one I did a couple of months ago. I'm going to chill quickly and immediately while whirlpooling as best I can with a big spoon. Hopefully this will help dissolve all the hop oils before they scarper. The proof will be in the pint.
"There are no strong beers, only weak men"

Dr. Dextrin

Re: Hop Steeping - a debate

Post by Dr. Dextrin » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:16 pm

alikocho wrote:I also wonder why so much of the literature, pro-brewers and hop processors talk about flashing off aroma compounds at temperatures if what you say is true. Could you point me at some references?
Perhaps we need to look at some basics. Suppose you have two liquids that are in solution together. That means they're inter-mixed at the molecular level, as opposed to simply oil floating on water. Lets take alcohol and water as an example, as it's a common situation, but the principle applies to all other solutions.

Alcohol (ethanol) boils at about 78C and water at 100C. Now suppose we heat a mixture of the two. If you've never studied this, I guess you'd expect that as you approach 78C, the alcohol in the mixture would "flash off" (to use your term). The temperature would hover around 78C until all the alcohol had gone, and then you'd be left with water. The temperature would then rise to 100C where the water would boil.

But that's not what happens at all. The mixture actually boils at some intermediate temperature between 78 and 100C, determined by the relative concentrations of alcohol and water and the detailed molecular interactions between them. Below this compromise temperature, the liquid doesn't boil, so losses to evaporation are very small, as with most non-boiling liquids. Some vapour is lost, but we're talking days rather than hours before much effect is noticed.

Once the boiling point is reached, the vapour that is lost is a mixture of alcohol and water. The relative proportion is determined by the vapour pressures at the boiling point, so with alcohol having a somewhat higher vapour pressure, somewhat more alcohol than water will be lost. This makes the alcohol concentration in the remaining solution fall slightly, and this raises the boiling point. So as the solution slowly boils away, its temperature rises and the concentration of alcohol falls. But the loss of alcohol is gradual. It doesn't all leave at a single temperature and a small amount persists until the entire liquid has boiled away. To have an appreciable effect on the alcohol concentration, you need to lose a significant volume of the solution to evaporation, even if the initial alcohol concentration is small. This takes some time to happen.

Turning to other solutions: in general, you expect the substance with the lower boiling point to be lost more rapidly once the solution boils. That's because a lower boiling point generally implies a higher vapour pesssure at any given temperature. As boiling continues, the concentration of this compound in the liquid will slowly fall. In our case, thanks to dcq1974, we know that the aroma compounds we're interested in all boil at much higher temperatures than water. So you'd expect that boiling a solution of them would actually *concentrate* the aroma in the wort rather than disperse it. Not what you might expect, perhaps, but I think that's where the science is pointing.

Of course, our wort isn't boiling. So although the composition of the lost vapour will be similar to if it were, the amount of lost vapour will be much smaller and things will happen even more slowly.

Most of this is a consequence of the well-known Dalton's Law. You can find a discussion of much of it in this Wikipedia article on distillation (in the Idealized Distillation Model paragraph in particular):

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... stillation

As to why there's so much reference to "flashing off" aroma compounds amongst brewers? Well, possibly because not many brewers have backgrounds in physics or physical chemistry and because the science behind distillation isn't really all that intuitive. Also, aroma compounds that aren't in solution can be lost far more easily, although I rather doubt that anyone processing hops ever gets them that hot.

Less, charitably, one might suspect that purveyors of fancy hops deliberately use the term and quote the "flash point" of certain compounds in the hope that people will conflate this with "boiling point", apply some bad science and reach the wrong conclusion (which is, of course, the right conclusion if you're selling fancy hops).
alikocho wrote:I'll buy into the notion that it stays in the can, but equilibrium still equals loss from the wort in this situation. And how long for that equilibrium to be achieved?
I don't see what's fanciful (Capn Ahab) about putting a lid on your boiler while steeping. It strikes me as eminently practical, if only to keep the flies out.

Equilibrium will probably be achieved within a few seconds (how long does it take to mist a piece of glass placed over the boiler?). And with typical vapour densities being around 0.001 of the liquid density, I don't think you'll be noticing the little bit that gets lost when you take the lid off.

But that's assuming you need to trap the aroma in the first place. I think the science says that you don't. Personally, I'd be worrying a lot more about what chemistry is going on in my wort. The effects of temperature on reactions involving flavour and aroma compounds seem much more relevant to me.

alikocho

Re: Hop Steeping - a debate

Post by alikocho » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:39 pm

Dr. Dextrin wrote:
alikocho wrote:I also wonder why so much of the literature, pro-brewers and hop processors talk about flashing off aroma compounds at temperatures if what you say is true. Could you point me at some references?
Sorry, I should have been clearer. Could you point me at some references that aren't a Wikimedia article on distillation. Like some actual published science or brewing material. I'm not trying to be picky, I actually do want to read this stuff (I'm an academic, and so this is what I do).

And while you dig those out, I'm going to call up some pro-brewers on the West Coast and see what they say...

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