Hard water, majority of England?

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Aleman
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Re: Hard water, majority of England?

Post by Aleman » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:48 pm

That map is wrong!

In Blackpool the water is soft, having around 18mg of calcium in it, nowhere near the indicated 100-200mg . . . same applies to Vossy in Manchester.

Be wary of terms here, when expressing the hardness as Calcium Carbonate that is not what is measured, Hardness is the amount of Calcium and Magnesium ions in the water, and while having some bearing on the quality of beer it is not a critical factor . . . the most important water measurement for brewing is alkalinity. . . . Which is related to the carbonate concentration . . . . Burton water is hard (lots of Calcium and Magnesium) but low in alkalinity (more or less). . . . and great for making Pale Ales . . . London Water is hard, and has a high alkalinity . . . great for dark beers without treatment.

It is vital to measure your alkalinity and, if necessary, take steps to reduce it as the first step in water treatment, otherwise you are just p*ssing into the wind. There are plenty of ways of getting your alkalinity, Palintest, Titrate with Methyl Orange/pH meter (NO! Its nothing to do with pH!!!, arm wrestle your water board into submission. Once you have that figure then you can take steps to reduce it using Acids, Boiling, Slaked lime or whatever . . . ideally for 'normal' beers it should be below 50 and even 30 would not be too low (In Blackpool I consistently measure it as 24ppm) . . . darker beers can tolerate higher levels.

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jubby
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Re: Hard water, majority of England?

Post by jubby » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:38 pm

Aleman wrote:
NO! Its nothing to do with pH!!!,
The point I was making about the ph is that whilst lowering alkalinity by adding acids or boiling etc, the ph will be lowered. This in itself I agree is meaningless, until you dough in the grain, as it helps the mash achieve the ideal ph of around 5.4.
Mr Nick's Brewhouse.

Thermopot HLT Conversion

Drinking: Mr Nick's East India IPA v3 First Gold & Citra quaffing ale
Conditioning:
FV:
Planned: Some other stuff.
Ageing:

HantsGaz

Re: Hard water, majority of England?

Post by HantsGaz » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:07 pm

If you brew with bottled water from Sainsbury's or Tesco's, these come with a full mineral listing and the pH - so no need for a water report! Below are the constituents, per litre, of Sainsbury's Caledonian bottled water:

Calcium 27mg, Magnesium 6.9mg, Potassium <1.0mg, Sodium 6.6mg, Bicarbonate 103mg, Sulphate 10.6mg, Nitrate <2.5mg, Fluoride <0.1mg, Chloride 6.4mg, Silicate 7.6mg, Dry residue at 180 deg C 117.2 (no idea what this is), PH 7.2.

What are the favoured products to either raise or lower the mash pH? I'm not sure whether the pH will go up or down after adding the grain! I'm guessing that I'll need to get some pH paper to obtain the mash pH but how then do I work out what quantities to add to it to get it to a pH of 5.3?

Thanks, Gaz.

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Re: Hard water, majority of England?

Post by jubby » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:34 pm

Gaz, as aleman says, you must know the alkalinity of your water. the higher the alkalinity, the higher the carbonates. High carbonate levels are not good (unless you intend brewing porters or milds) Once you know the alkalinity, you can reduce the carbonate content. By doing this, you will lower the ph of the water which will put it in the 'ball park' for mashing, so that when the grain is added, you will achieve the target of 5.4 ish. There are a number of methods to reduce carbonate levels. I prefer to use brupaks CRS. Once you have your water quality report (if you are using tap water) click on "hints and tips' above then click 'calculators' select 'Grahams water calculator' from the list. Fill in the boxes and it will tell you what to add. If you do nothing other than correct the carbonate levels, you will be well on your way to producing good beer.
Mr Nick's Brewhouse.

Thermopot HLT Conversion

Drinking: Mr Nick's East India IPA v3 First Gold & Citra quaffing ale
Conditioning:
FV:
Planned: Some other stuff.
Ageing:

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jubby
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Re: Hard water, majority of England?

Post by jubby » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:15 am

Paulstat,

I made a mistake in my previous post by recommending that you add CRS as a matter of course. (i have edited this out)

The map you posted lists water hardness expressed in CaCo3. This is not alkalinity, which can also be expressed as CaC03.

As Aleman rightly says:
Be wary of terms here, when expressing the hardness as Calcium Carbonate that is not what is measured, Hardness is the amount of Calcium and Magnesium ions in the water, and while having some bearing on the quality of beer it is not a critical factor . . . the most important water measurement for brewing is alkalinity.
My apologies if I caused any confusion.
Mr Nick's Brewhouse.

Thermopot HLT Conversion

Drinking: Mr Nick's East India IPA v3 First Gold & Citra quaffing ale
Conditioning:
FV:
Planned: Some other stuff.
Ageing:

PaulStat

Re: Hard water, majority of England?

Post by PaulStat » Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:29 am

Muhahahaha I knew having contacts in the water company would pay off. For my property it is

Over the last year:

Average 139 mg/l as CaCO3
Min 124
Max 154

I only asked yesterday 8)

ade1865

Re: Hard water, majority of England?

Post by ade1865 » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:02 pm

heh, way lower than mine Paul,I've got an average of 248! but then i do live right on top of the mendips.

PaulStat

Re: Hard water, majority of England?

Post by PaulStat » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:16 pm

ade1865 wrote:heh, way lower than mine Paul,I've got an average of 248! but then i do live right on top of the mendips.
Yikes! How many kettles/washing machines do you get through? :=P

By the looks of the figures quoted in Daabs thread a value of 100-150 is about right for the darker beers, which tend to be my favourite anyway 8)

HantsGaz

Re: Hard water, majority of England?

Post by HantsGaz » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:57 pm

I think I need a little more help on this subject from you knowledgeable chaps....

So what I understand is to not take hardness expressed as CaCO3 as the alkalinity (as hardness is a mixture of Ca & Mg).

What I need further help on is how to determine the alkalinity. What we want to measure is the level of carbonate in the water. Is it CaCO3 expressed as mg/l (same as ppm)? Or is is a case of plugging all the contents into Grahams calculator?

So in the case of my Sainsbury's Caledonian - which lists Bicarbonate in the mineral analysis (which I think is HCO3) as 103 mg/l. So plugging this into row 1 of the calculator it calculates the Carbonate (CO3) as 50.65. Is that my alkalinity?

And in the case of my tap water - Southern Water, they list the average hardness in CaCO3 as 282 mg/l (so no good) and the Ca as 112.8 mg/l (and when downloading the detailed water report it does not list calcium or magnesium). So not sure what to to with that. The report is here.

Last question - where do you buy Sodium Sulphate (Glauber's salt) from?

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Aleman
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Re: Hard water, majority of England?

Post by Aleman » Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:04 pm

HantsGaz wrote:So what I understand is to not take hardness expressed as CaCO3 as the alkalinity (as hardness is a mixture of Ca & Mg).
Correct as what they have done is to quote the hardness as the equivilant amount of calcium carbonate that would be required to get to that level . . .Bloody silly way of expressing it but there you go
HantsGaz wrote:in the case of my Sainsbury's Caledonian - which lists Bicarbonate in the mineral analysis (which I think is HCO3) as 103 mg/l. So plugging this into row 1 of the calculator it calculates the Carbonate (CO3) as 50.65. Is that my alkalinity?
No your alkalinity is almost . . . but not quite the same as your bicarbonate (hydrogencarbonate) . . . it depends on pH, but in all reality the difference can be ignored
HantsGaz wrote:And in the case of my tap water - Southern Water, they list the average hardness in CaCO3 as 282 mg/l (so no good) and the Ca as 112.8 mg/l
I would ignore average hardness, and just use the Ca figure . . . Although I'm getting confused here . . . are you brewing with the Sainsburys water or your tap water? You can't mix the values from each analysis (Incidentally the last time I saw a date of analysis on a bottle it was from a report commissioned in 1992 :shock:) . . . I can only suggest that you buy a Palintest kit so that you can measure your alkalinity directly
HantsGaz wrote:Last question - where do you buy Sodium Sulphate (Glauber's salt) from?
No Idea, Personally I would just ask She to bring some home from work ;)

HantsGaz

Re: Hard water, majority of England?

Post by HantsGaz » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:09 pm

Hi Aleman,
Although I'm getting confused here . . . are you brewing with the Sainsbury’s water or your tap water? You can't mix the values from each analysis
No I was just stating what waters I have available to me and what I know about them (no mixing planned :wink: ).

So the alkalinity in my Caledonian water is roughly 103 mg/l of bicarbonate (HCO3) and the pH is 7.4 (according to the label). So I guess for this water I'll stick to Graham's calculator and just add the additions suggested. I'm still looking for that definitive way/measure of stating the alkalinity tho - or is just a mixture of various things (the pH, the carbonate etc). I might have missed this, so apologies!

The only other clarification I'd like is that as the Mash pH is calculated only when the grain is added to the water, do I need to do any further changes to the mash after I've changed my water using Graham's calculator?..........

Gaz.

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Re: Hard water, majority of England?

Post by Aleman » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:47 pm

HantsGaz wrote: I'm still looking for that definitive way/measure of stating the alkalinity tho - or is just a mixture of various things (the pH, the carbonate etc). I might have missed this, so apologies!
There are a couple of methods, the easiest is to use a test kit and the ex admin Daab did come up with one which works really well . . . not available now though :( . . . Palintest Do an alkalinity test kit, which you can use to tell you how much acid to add to neutralise it . . . rather than measure it and work thorough the calculations ;)
HantsGaz wrote:The only other clarification I'd like is that as the Mash pH is calculated only when the grain is added to the water, do I need to do any further changes to the mash after I've changed my water using Graham's calculator?
You shouldn't . . . if you get the alkalinity in the right ball park, the pH of the mash should fall within an acceptable range . . . and that is what it is all about . . . OK I use water treatment to tweak the Malt/bitterness balance, and to supplement the Calcium levels of my water (Its around 16mg/l here too low for good brewing), but if you have a reasonable calcium level to start with all you really need to do is correct the alkalinity ideally to below 50mg/L (or even 30mg/l for paler beers)

HantsGaz

Re: Hard water, majority of England?

Post by HantsGaz » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:51 pm

Ok - think this is becoming clearer now - thanks loads.

Frisp

Re: Hard water, majority of England?

Post by Frisp » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:35 am

I remember getting all confused the last time the hardness debate came up. I had only just got my head around it all when Daab pointed out that Tesco cheap bottled water was not far off the mark.
17p for 2L
I have used it since then. popped a campden tablet in my HLT just incase the dreaded fluoride is present and off we go.
It costs me £3.40 for the water to brew 23L of ale.
I have done this in the last 4 brews and I have had no problems.

This is fine in 23L batches but Im upgrading to 100L boiler 80L thermobox mashtun so I will need much more water than is practical to carry from Tescos. SO I will have to buy some CRS and treat my water. Wessex water tell me that my level is 166Mg

Frisp

Re: Hard water, majority of England?

Post by Frisp » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:59 am

The Best guide to water treatment I have seen was posted by Daab Here

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