The real reason married men should fly sparge?

[Graham]

You'll have to set the Teas-Maid 5 mins earlier

Actually, been up since the crack of dawn. Settled down to watch a film on the telly yesterday, and fell asleep in the ruddy chair. Television does that to me - without fail. Woke up when it was too late to consider going to bed.

Btw this proves the point, 2 equally valid slightly different ways of achieveing the same result, do one or the other or something inbetween, it matters not.

Basically, I was pointing out that BeerEngine assumes that brew-length or thereabouts is collected in the boiler. The recipes in BYO assume that too. BYO has to cater for people who use commonly-available ready-made stuff, and that is probably the majority. It also has to assume that not everybody has bottomless pockets or engineering facilities.

Of course, it seems that Tequilla6 has an oversized boiler, so he has more flexibility and much of what I said might not apply. Slightly higher mash efficiency may well be obtained by collecting a higher volume and boiling down of course, but it does mean getting volume and evaporation calculations fairly spot on.

[Tequilla6]

See that's a sign of a good comedian, Always beats you to the punchline...lol

Thanks for the responses guys.

but knowing your efficiency is a good idea - for recipe tweaking

That's really why I want to understand the fly sparge process, If I don't understand a process how can I change anything to move towards my desired objectives.

Chris Point 1 & 2 are interesting and where I wanted clarification.
Points 3-6 are in my mind understood, so I have no problem with them. Once I get to the Pre-Boil volume stage of my brew all is understood and falls into place right up to the FV..

Graham, Not sure what kind of info you want on the fly sparge method I'm using.

3 Tier system using a 50Litre plastic HLT with Ball valve, a 30 Litre Coolbox Mashtun with copper manifold and ball valve and a 50 Litre plastic boiler for collection.



This is a photo of my fly sparging over a stainless steel plate.

The issue I have had with all my previous brews is too little Pre-Boil Volume at too high a gravity and running out of water from the HLT. I end up having to drain the Mashtun completely when fly sparging to hit anywhere near my pre-boil volume. We can ignore all the processes after the Pre-Boil collection volume as these are not pertinent to my original question. At the end of a fly sparge operation I should still have from my understanding my initial Mash Liquor volume in the Mashtun as I had at the beginning of the fly sparge

So if I need a Pre-boil volume of 30.5 Litres with 4.5 KG of grain and I know my Mashtun dead space is 1 Litre. I cannot sparge with 25L that the programs are telling me as I will only end up with a maximum of 25 Litres of wort. The rest of the available wort is still in the Mashtun. If I up my sparge water to 30.5 Litres then I can sparge until my pre-boil volume of 30.5 Litres is achieved. I now have 30.5 Litres of Wort in my Boiler and 10.5Litres in my mashtun, which is made up of 4.5 Litres absorption, 1 Litre dead space loss and 5 Litres of wort that is too low an SG to be useful. If during this process, my flushing of the wort is more aggressive (as it was on my AG#5 brew) and I have to stop fly sparging before the sparge water quantity I calculate has been used. Then I should be able to turn off the sparge water from the HLT to the Mashtun and whatever is left in the HLT should be the quantity I am missing from my boiler. In the case of my last brew it was 2 Litres. Checking the Pre-Boil SG and using a dilution calculator, I can confirm if either my Mashtun efficiency is off and adjust for my next brew or I can add additional water from the HLT to bring it to the expected SG of the Pre-Boil wort.

Perhaps pictures will help, This is how I was doing it basing my total Liquor on those supplied by the software.


This is how I did my last AG#5 brew based on the software + plus the 5L I think I need.


But with fly sparging I should always end up with the 10.5L of loss in the Mashtun based on a 4.5Kg grainbill. I understand the pictures are not great and I am trying to improve the quality of them at the moment. But hopefully you can garner what I mean.

[Chiltern Brewer]

Echoing earlier sentiments, I think you're worrying too much.

However, what I would add is that if you're committed to fly sparging then do it slowly and try to match the flow rates so that the mash bed floats. I don't bother with testing the gravity of the runnings myself, once I've collected enough wort or they don't taste sweet I stop sparging. The main thing to worry about is if you can reach your target OG and volume in the FV (by dilution if necessary). If you're doing that I wouldn't worry about being a few litres short of your projected pre-boil volume.

[Tequilla6]

Never been much good at knitting Chris-x Crochet maybe

BeerEngine defaults and all the Wheeler recipes are based on not collecting more than the target brew-length in the boiler

This quote has been the most helpful and have been re-reading Graham's first and second post on the subject which I missed the first time round. Thought it was just banter between you two. .or it was posted whilst I was working on my reply.

But I assure you, I am not trying to be thick and the last thing I want to do is annoy people asking the same old questions again and again, especially you Chris and Graham as you have both been very helpful in getting this novice started on the right track to brewing. Currently supping my first AG brew "Toasted Oatmeal stout" which is utterly fantastic and better that the one I sometimes get in the pub thanks to the guys on the forum. But it is my brew I guess.

Once I get my head wrapped around this issue, I'll be a happy chappie and I think I'm almost there. We shall see on my next AG brew which is number 6.

[chris_reboot]

good luck tequilla, and go for the OP for your next, it's what I made first, and just drinking it now.
A bit special!

[simple one]

Tequila. Let me show you what I think you mean! lol Forgive me if I am teaching you what you already know.



1. Mash on
2. Re-Circulating the wort
3. Fly sparging at same rate as out flow (keeping grain bed damp but not under water?)
4. Mid Sparge
5. End Sparge

A. Grain + High Concentration of sugars
B. Liquor
C. Wort run off
D. Grain + Medium Concentration of sugars
E. Grain + Practically no Concentration of sugars

As you can see the dead space is made up of wort which potentially is low in gravity and high in tanins. We dont want that stuff. So we can forget about dead space and grain absorbtion. They are pretty much irrelevant figures. Why would I want to know how much water and weak wort I am throwing away in to the compost heap?
Fly sparging should always be over before hitting the pre boil volume. If not, there is something wrong mechanically (with tun or grain) or with the procedure you are using.
Liquor then should be used to make up the volume in the boiler to bring it up to a correct ratio of preboil volume vs. gravity, so when evaporation does occur, you end up with the required brew length and correct volume. Obviously if the volumes:gravity aren't what was anticipated (due to mistakes, crap grain dodgy kit etc), then volumes can be tinkered with mid brew to compensate, but remember to adjust hops too.

My top tip for fly sparging is if mash eff is really low, taste the grains. How sweet are the grains? And an even better trick is you can work out where in the tun they are. Obviously if they aren't sweet, then there is something wrong with the conversion.

The diagrams are pretty self explanatory. I would suggest taking a step backward. For the next brew forget about total liquor volumes. Forget mash tun dead space and grain absorbtion. Even go as far as abandoning the HLT (as a container for the "total brewday liquor" and just use it as a container "liquor") and the computer all together (bar recipie creation if needed). It might feel like your brewing blind, but your not. Its just your placing to much significance in these figures.

The only thing that you should be aiming for is your preboil gravity and volume, and therefore more importantly post boil gravity and volume. And after all the dust has settled work out your brew house efficency.

As has been said on the post already. Accurate totals for brewday liquor takes thourough knowledge of your kit and processes and experience of the kit and recipies used. I would say the computer figures are rough estimates to help with pre-water treatment. But there are too many factors to be accurate with how much water is used on a brewday.

From what I have gathered, your brewing is fine, volumes and gravity are met. But your struggling to work out the reasons for these values. I hope this explains things, or if it doesnt, helps you understand why you cant work out everything?

Another question about fly sparging anyone?

I have always fly sparged. And when I was first taught how to do it, I was always under the understanding that the grain bed was to be moist, but not underwater. To float the grain bed seems almost against everything I was taught. Surely if it floats, the path of least resistance becomes the edges of the tun? Surely it should be compacted enough to not crark but not under an inch of water. Most people on here seem to have there sparge water as nearly as deep as a batch sparge.

Which is right, which is more efficient?

Cheers,
Matt

[Tequilla6]

Matt,

Your diagrams help especially number 5. This shows at the end of fly sparging you have a the same amount of water/liquor (Whatever you want to call it) in the Mashtun as you had when you started. This is how I understood it to work.

This just means that the total Liquor shown on the brew software is OK for Batch spargers but incorrect for fly spargers because it does not take into account the water/liquor left in the Mashtun at the end of the fly sparge operation.

Perhaps I have been asking the wrong question. My question should have been "Is the volume of water on the Mashtun the same at the end of fly sparging as it was at the beginning"

If this is the case then I have my answer to my satisfaction. I can now say that Total Liquor volume required for a brew to give me my Pre-boil volume is
Mash Water + Sparge Water + (Mash Water - (Dead Space + Grain Absorption)

So for my last brew it was
10.5 + 25 + (10.5 - (1 -4.5) = 40.5L

Not the 35.5 the software is advising. Provided that I use this as a calculator for my total sparging I should never run out of water in my HLT, which I have been doing even though I have been adding what I thought was over my actual requirement by a few Litres. This means that if I need to stop the sparge before the sparge water has been used then the remaining sparge water in my HLT should equal the missing water from the Pre-Boil volume.

This is what seems to have happened with my last brew where I stopped sparging with 2L of liquor remaining in my HLT and found that my Pre-boil volume was also 2L short of its mark at a higher gravity than specified. Adding the 2 L of HLT water brought this down to the expected gravity. The fact that I have been messing around without sight tubes on my equipment and no real easy way of measuring exactly the water in my HLT, Mashtun or Boiler for the last 4 Brews. I have been using the software sheets as a rough guide and I could not understand where I was going wrong. It seems the error was not mine in the brewing process but one of not understanding the brewsheets that I was using for a template to brew with. Before I had the sight tubes I was somewhat blind to the actual problem and put it down to my brewing inexperience. However now I have the sight tubes fitted and I know that the liquor volumes were now correct that it was not me and my brewing process but a fundamental misunderstanding/difference between what the software brew sheets were telling me and my understanding of them.

So at the end of this long thread....sigh if the answer to this question "Is the volume of water on the Mashtun the same at the end of fly sparging as it was at the beginning" is YES, Then I have my answer.

Thanks for everyones input.

PS as to your question

I have always fly sparged. And when I was first taught how to do it, I was always under the understanding that the grain bed was to be moist, but not underwater. To float the grain bed seems almost against everything I was taught. Surely if it floats, the path of least resistance becomes the edges of the tun? Surely it should be compacted enough to not crark but not under an inch of water. Most people on here seem to have there sparge water as nearly as deep as a batch sparge.

Which is right, which is more efficient?

I think I had better leave that one well alone. This one is too complicated for a rookie like me...

[HantsGaz]

BeerEngine defaults and all the Wheeler recipes are based on not collecting more than the target brew-length in the boiler

This quote has been the most helpful

So when the pages list 19, 23 or 25 litre recipes - they are the volumes to be collected in the boiler (after sparging) - not the post boil volumes. Have I got that right?

[Graham]

So when the pages list 19, 23 or 25 litre recipes - they are the volumes to be collected in the boiler (after sparging) - not the post boil volumes. Have I got that right?

No, they are the volumes you end up drinking.

[HantsGaz]

Thanks Graham – your answer is good & bad news for me! Good in the sense that at least I interpreted your book correctly, bad in the sense that I can’t get the results (final gravities) I need from the recipe amounts, for any standard recipe amount that is (not just yours)! So am I going wrong somewhere?

I think the reason is the amount of water I need to use to end up with a target brew length (hence when I use published recipe amounts I always fall short of the mark). For example, when I take into account an average of 15% loss through evaporation per hour (so approx. a 22% reduction in the boil volume over 90 mins) plus account for 5 litres set aside to hops & trub – I need a greater boil volume and hence higher grain bills to achieve target gravities for all the recipes I see published. As I use a 30 litre Burco, the most I can get into it is 27 litres – hence why I was wondering if I’d interpreted your book wrong after reading your earlier comment in this thread. Working with my figures and equipment I normally need a boil volume of around 31 litres to achieve a clear 19 litre brew length that sits on top of a further 5 litres of hops & trub in the boiler.

For example, if I use one of your 19 litre recipes (pg 164) that should end up with a FG of 1049 and use the total amount of water I would need to end up with 19L, I would generally end up with a gravity of 1039! Or, if I worked it around the other way and used the recommended amount of water I’d end up with approx 17L (13L of clear wort over 4L of trub etc) but at a gravity of 1.055 (however adding 6L of water to top up to 19L puts me back in 1.039 territory).

Here’s a basic calculation of what goes on in a typical brew day for me if I were not to adjust the published ingredient amounts (based on actual results for each amount listed, inc OG & FG’s):

Boil volume calculation
Target Fermenter Volume (19L) + lauter tun dead space (1L) + Grain absorption (4.12L) + Losses to evaporation (6.8L) = 19 + 1 + 4.1 +6.8 = 30.9L

Gravity Calculation:
Grist 4.12 (kg) * 301 (extract kg/L) / 31L (boil volume) x 75% (efficiency) = 1.030 pre boil gravity
31L (boil volume) / 24L (final volume after losing 22% through evaporation but including the trub volume) *1.030 = 1.039

Hopefully that all makes sense - as it's been bugging me for quite a while now. So either I’m doing something wrong or with my particular set up I just need to adjust all the recipe amounts (which I do). So it would be nice to know if this is just me – or this is usual!!!

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this, Gaz.

[simple one]

Why are you including the dead space in your tun and he absorbtion by the grains in your formula?

Pre boil volume = target FV volume + evap + losses to hops + dead space in boiler.

The evaporation does not (significantly) effect a loss of sugars from the system, just a change in volume. The dead space and hops will alter the ratio of gravity to volume because potentially they will hold a volume of wort.

So.... compensate for BOILER dead space and hops by an increase in sugars, for the amount lost in your system.

and... compensate for evaporation by altering the volume, but not the sugars.

[towser]

I use Graham's book but get better efficiency than the 75%.
So I now use the 23 litre quantities of grain to hit a 25/26 litre output into the FV at the required OG.
For me, it was trial and error over 2 or 3 brews before I got it right with my setup. Nothing technical.
The last brew was a Black Sheep Ale. Came out bang-on the suggested Gravity and tasted marvelous

[clogwog]

I batch sparge, and am very very happy with my efficiencies.

I don't fly sparge because, as a married man, I will not allow anyone to pour 80ºC water down my fly for the better part of an hour.

[HantsGaz]

simple one wrote
Why are you including the dead space in your tun and he absorbtion by the grains in your formula?

Pre boil volume = target FV volume + evap + losses to hops + dead space in boiler.

That was a complete blonde moment! I have no idea why I wrote that

I do in fact use: required post boil volume (inc losses to hops, trub & dead space) / (1 - % lost to evaporation). I was getting confused, in my write up, on how I calculate total volume of liquor required....

[HantsGaz]

Chris-x1 wrote:

If you are batch sparging you will get a lower efficiency by comparison to fly sparging although it can be quite a time saver but you should be able to get a respectable efficiency in the 70s-80's

I do batch sparge most of the time, but I think I’m getting 75% efficiency as I hit the target boil gravity. So unless my calculation is wrong for that, then I think I'm OK on that front.

This is why I asked the question about whether the recipes were targeted for the amount collected before the boil, as then they (the recipe amounts) work for me for hitting FG's after the boil and a top up. But as they are not - then I have something wrong with my set up I guess as it appears I'm under extracting the sugars I should be getting. Which is why I’m confused and trying to sort this out....?