all grain brewing problem

[Spud395]

I dont know if there's a taste caused by not cleaning, but your element will burn out a hell of a lot quicker if you let limescale build up on it. Normally I use a toothbrush and every couple of brews I take them out and give them a good scrub.
But then I use well water and burn out 2-3 kettles in the kitchen every year!

There are surley taste problems from the inside of dirty taps, even after a really good wash you'd be supprised what hangs aroud if you disassemble the tap!

[a-slayer]

Try bottling some of a brew and see if that develops the same taste as the barrel. I always get better results from bottles and have got rid of all my barrels ages ago.

[gunner]

Fallen, check out the FAQ's,there is a thread on element cleaning.

[gnorwebthgimi]

I have thought about trying bottling in the past as it could give a better indication of how the beer taste matures.

I was thinking of using 2 litre plastic bottles as there is little chance they will explode and they can be got hold of cheaply.

I may do this in conjunction with brewing a smaller batch.

[Fallen]

Fallen, check out the FAQ's,there is a thread on element cleaning.

Cheers Gunner. I found this thread about 3 seconds after I posted my reply

[flything]

Definately try bottled water, Asda Smartprice has always worked for me, tap water, even filtered and treated with a camden tablet (as well as having the alkalinity adjusted with acid) was never satisfactory.

That way you can at least isolate one potential cause of the off tastes and discount it.

Secondly, I'm utterly paranoid about oxidation, the cardboardy taste etc, so I mess with my beer as little as possible, I generally only transfer at most twice when bottling (primary into bottling bucket on top of priming sugar solution, into bottles) or once when kegging (straight from primary into corny), I also either siphon or push a siphon tube up into the tap, I never liked using a 10mm ID tube from a tap to transfer as there was always so much beer surface area exposed as it flowed into the next container.

Finally, fermentation, after sanitation, is everything, so make sure you are aerating your wort properly and pitching enough yeast (1 packet of dried is just about enough for up to a 1.040 og beer, anything above that gets two packets or a decent starter), and try to keep the fermentation steady bang on the middle of the range for the yeast.

[gnorwebthgimi]

Hi Flything

Thanks for that. I agree with everything you say, will be trying out bottled water (with campden).

I assume the bad tap water (I live in Suffolk and the water is harder than a muscle bound 80's/90's film star). It's either causing a bad taste due to the mash or the boil but probably both because the beer tastes ok when I do kits.

I guess my choice of yeast may also not be helping, the s04 is very unassuming from what I have read and the other flavours may be more pronounced, but even the wheat beer yeast couldn't compete with whatever flavours got through.

I too, am paranoid about oxidation to the extent that I satisfied myself that it's not oxidation because of the kit ale didn't get oxidised (ruling out the barrel and the transfer).

I barrel as soon as possible, which is why I introduced a second fermentation stage, to try and rule out that I'm not being overly cautious about oxidation and doing something else wrong.

I have always had very fast and clean ferments with all my brews, I assumed this meant that the yeast are happy but aeration could be an issue. After the boil I allow the wort to drop into another barrel through a tap, which I hoped gave it a bit of aeration. In my early brews I didn't have a cooler and there should have been enough time for air to get into the brew before I could pitch (usually 24 hours). I actually found this a really good way of sanitising as pretty much nothing can grow in the fermenter with really hot wort in it and I would just pitch when it cooled down. The problem was that the hop bitterness was crazy! which of course masked the funny taste but made the beer way too bitter for my taste. If the water supply doesn't fix the problem (along with cleaning the kettle element), I'm going to try a different yeast strain after that I'm "going postal".

There are no HB shops or other brewers where I live so the guys on this forum are all the homebrew friends I have (Wipes tear from eye).
What I mean is that I'm really grateful for the help, I think lesser brewers would give up after so many only partially successful brews.

[soupdragon]

Hi Flything

Thanks for that. I agree with everything you say, will be trying out bottled water (with campden).

I assume the bad tap water (I live in Suffolk and the water is harder than a muscle bound 80's/90's film star). It's either causing a bad taste due to the mash or the boil but probably both because the beer tastes ok when I do kits.

Hi gnorwebthgimi

Any chance you can post your results once you've done your next brew with the bottled water? My brews are turning out "ok" but I'd be happier if I could get a cleaner taste to them. I'm going to try bottled water myself for my next brew but it's a couple of months away so if you're planning one any time soon I'd be happy to hear if it makes a significant difference to yours.

Cheers Tom

[gnorwebthgimi]

Hi Soup Dragon

Are you new to all grain?

When I did my first kit I used filtered tap water (it took ages to filter 5 gallons of tap water!) and subsequent kits were not quite as good but good enough. So I've never really thought of water as a problem, but I'm hoping that my off flavours are being caused by mashing and boiling complications with the water.

Will post back when I do my next brew in a week or two and let everyone know how it goes. So that other people can learn from my mistakes and if people have advised me correctly they can knowingly nod their heads and smile smugly.

[gnorwebthgimi]

I have another culprit.

I have done some reading and almost convinced myself this is hot side aeration.

Firstly, I transfer my mash from my mush tun to a brew bin fitted with a grain bag to filter off the grain. This introduces air when the grain is at about 67'c.

Then I filter the wort as it comes off the grain bed through muslin, introducing air while the wort is at the same temperature.

My theory is that my beer is basically going stale because oxygen is bonding to chemicals like proteins and lipids and slowly leeching out of these chemicals all during fermentation and in the barrel. When the yeast goes dormant it's no longer absorbing the oxygen that is breaking out of the proteins and lipids, which is killing my beer.

That's my theory, I will let you know what happens when I filter and tap to my mash tun and do away with the muslin filter and brew next.

[jat147]

I have another culprit.

I have done some reading and almost convinced myself this is hot side aeration.

Yeah I read a lot about HSA also, it does seem to fit into the big picture. Check this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35205
Particularly around post #13 I think?

... I've dumped a few brews of late, and I'm not sure about the water being the cause. I've always had very hard water
and have never treated it yet - but up until recently have always made quality beers. I'm now revisiting the process to
make sure nothing is going wrong there.

[soupdragon]

Hi Soup Dragon

Are you new to all grain?

When I did my first kit I used filtered tap water (it took ages to filter 5 gallons of tap water!) and subsequent kits were not quite as good but good enough. So I've never really thought of water as a problem, but I'm hoping that my off flavours are being caused by mashing and boiling complications with the water.

Will post back when I do my next brew in a week or two and let everyone know how it goes. So that other people can learn from my mistakes and if people have advised me correctly they can knowingly nod their heads and smile smugly.

Hi

I used to brew all grain 20 odd years ago and am gently easing myself back in to the art. Started with a few kits then moved to extract before doing mini mashes and partial boils. So far, so good but I've noticed that the brews lose some of the more subtle flavours as the beer ages. I live in a soft water area and don't ( as yet ) use any water treatment. I'm just looking to change 1 thing at a time to see what difference it will have to the final beer. Ideally I'd like to end up brewing all grain again but space and lack of equipment dictates that over half my fermentables come from extract and that as I only have a 15 ltr stockpot I only do partial boils.

Cheers Tom

[gnorwebthgimi]

I really liked the leap to all grain because of the possibilities it opened up. I've had a few good brews and a few bad ones, thankfully I can see the potential so I'm soldiering on.

How do you mash? and what yeast's do you use? Someone in this thread said "fermentation is second only to sanitisation". But the reason we sanitise is so that the yeast don't have any unwanted guests to their party, so sanitisation is done only for fermentation. Therefore fermentation is the most important thing. Hence the yeast you use is very important. Some people complain about s04 but most people love it, I love it even though I've never seen it's true potential, yet.

I will let everyone know how my next brew goes, I've cleaned my brew kettle (performs better now too) and I've upgraded my mash tun with a filter and tap so that I don't have to slosh the mash around. I will also be treating the wort very carefully when its at the 60 - 70'c range to try and reduce contact with air. Will take about three weeks before I can confirm whether this has worked.

[fisherman]

Hi fisherman here, Thanks for the e-mail,
My problems is not related to yours, My problem is me I have been using to hops to high in alpha acid for economy ( tight ) I hope I have learn't my lesson, Also not brewing to real recipes.
Cheers
fisherman

[Big G]

I have another culprit.
I have done some reading and almost convinced myself this is hot side aeration.
Firstly, I transfer my mash from my mush tun to a brew bin fitted with a grain bag to filter off the grain. This introduces air when the grain is at about 67'c.
Then I filter the wort as it comes off the grain bed through muslin, introducing air while the wort is at the same temperature.
My theory is that my beer is basically going stale because oxygen is bonding to chemicals like proteins and lipids and slowly leeching out of these chemicals all during fermentation and in the barrel. When the yeast goes dormant it's no longer absorbing the oxygen that is breaking out of the proteins and lipids, which is killing my beer.
That's my theory, I will let you know what happens when I filter and tap to my mash tun and do away with the muslin filter and brew next.

I sparge and use this method & have no bad effetcs. Im on my 5th All Grain and everyone has turned out above my expectations. I actually siphoned off a Batemans Mild yesterday from its primary into its secondary and was lovely. Also bottled up all of my weiss which again was fine.
I suppose its what works for you.
I have bought some rubbish bottled beers recently & can honestly say on price and taste, Home brewed All Grain beer beats most hands down.