Microbrewing v Homebrewing

[smbenn]

Typical schedule is 4 to 7 days in the fermenter plus a week in the barrel then done.

I was wondering this... I seem to remember seeing a video of Harvey's (my local and favourite brewer) moving from fermentation to barrel for finings for a week then out the door. They obviously know what they're doing ... so how come I have to leave my beer to mature for one week for every .010 of OG?

(I'd imagine that the barrel probably has another couple of days in a pub cellar until it's opened but still, that's barely 2 weeks end-to-end...?)

Si

[Kev888]

I think you also have to consider practicality in this sort of thing: the commercial brewers are concerned about turnover and work full time, whereas for the home brewer time isn't money whilst brewing has to fit around other work/life.

Before I had a temperature controlled fermenting cupboard (and even now occasionally, with higher gravity recipies) my fermentation can still be falling towards the end of the first week or beyond - usually it isn't but sometimes it is depending on many factors. So with everything else in my life I find it easier to plan on a two-week basis, and so be sure that its ready for me rather than visa versa. I can't detect any problems with that and indeed the beer seems clearer, and these days with my fermenting fridge I often help that process by cooling the beer in any extra days between fermenting ending and racking to the keg.

I've also read (so it must be true!) of some commercial breweries fermenting quite warm to speed things up; unless its a beer where lots of yeast character is appropriate or a yeast thats fairly clean under warmer conditions then I personally prefer to brew cooler even though it takes slightly longer - thats my personal taste (and I brew for myself) but I have the luxury to make that choice if I want to, whereas a commercial setup may be more constrained by economics and demand.

I gave up moving to a secondary FV some years ago, I believe generally opinion on that has shifted a bit and fewer people seem to think its as important in the time its usually on the yeast. I would still prime though (sometimes referred to as the second fermentation) if I didn't now force carbonate. I know some people simply bottle/keg a bit earlier but I tried that and struggled to get it consistent - my own ineptitude there, probably.

Its interesting to read Graham's post on this though. I suppose if i really geared up for it then I could get most brews in the keg the weekend after brewing, though it may not be especially convenient to do so - does anyone know of any good reasons to try for that, other than expediency?

Cheers
kev

[TC2642]

I've also read (so it must be true!) of some commercial breweries fermenting quite warm to speed things up; unless its a beer where lots of yeast character is appropriate or a yeast thats fairly clean under warmer conditions then I personally prefer to brew cooler even though it takes slightly longer - thats my personal taste (and I brew for myself) but I have the luxury to make that choice if I want to, whereas a commercial setup may be more constrained by economics and demand.

kev

Interesting you say that, I have a mate who runs a 'cuckoo brewery', when I asked him about fermentation temps he says that the usual range will be in the 24-26oC range. When I asked if he thought this was fairly high he shook his head, the yeast used is several generations old and must have got used to the conditions and the fermenter. No off flavours or problems in the beer I have tried of his.

I for one, using dry yeast, could never ferment down to my required gravity in three to four days, it takes me around the 10-14 days, depending on OG. I cannot get a dry yeast to ferment out faster than this.

He also got his Imperial stout into the pubs with a gravity of around 8-9% in around two to three weeks whereas it took me three weeks in primary, five months in secondary (with a new yeast) and will take a further seven months before I think it will be ready.

Although I do usually start drinking my moderate gravity beer when it has had a week or two in bottle or keg, but then I like the hop freshness that this brings.

[smbenn]

Cheers chaps, some really interesting stuff on fermentation, but my real suprise was at the short times commercial breweries leave for maturation. Can Harveys Sussex Best really be ready after 1 week (or whatever?) Thoughts?

[Kev888]

Interesting you say that, I have a mate who runs a 'cuckoo brewery', when I asked him about fermentation temps he says that the usual range will be in the 24-26oC range. When I asked if he thought this was fairly high he shook his head, the yeast used is several generations old and must have got used to the conditions and the fermenter. No off flavours or problems in the beer I have tried of his.

Well I guess if it works then no problems at all really - thats perhaps another difference then, for whatever reason I can't brew that warm without tasting the effects - so its good that I don't need to really!

Cheers chaps, some really interesting stuff on fermentation, but my real suprise was at the short times commercial breweries leave for maturation. Can Harveys Sussex Best really be ready after 1 week (or whatever?) Thoughts?

Not sure if this is related to it, but another difference is that a lot of commercially produced beer is pasturised before being sent out - it helps consistancy and would presumably stop much of the conditioning process anyway - I know many use filters and/or finings to speed clearing as well, as do some home brewers but not all. I'm not personally convinced that pasturising doesn't have some negative effect, but there are good beers that are produced this way so its perhaps yet another fine skill that the home brewer has the luxury of not needing.

Cheers
Kev

[TC2642]

Not sure if this is related to it, but another difference is that a lot of commercially produced beer is pasturised before being sent out - it helps consistancy and would presumably stop much of the conditioning process anyway - I know many use filters and/or finings to speed clearing as well, as do some home brewers but not all. I'm not personally convinced that pasturising doesn't have some negative effect, but there are good beers that are produced this way so its perhaps yet another fine skill that the home brewer has the luxury of not needing.

Cheers
Kev

Unlikely to non existent from the small to medium microbreweries that supply kegs to pubs for obvious reasons. Although I do know that some will send off their beer for yeast filtration if they are bottling on a fairly large scale.

[jmc]

Really interesting post.

I only started AG last summer, just on AG 19 now and must admit to still being confused between the knowledge that commercial brewers knock beer out so quick, even some of the complex beers from Belgian brewers, yet as homebrewers we are to leave in secondary for yeast to clean up, to mature before bottling etc.

Now this is probably also caused by reading lots of disparate views on the subject, but a newbie is bound to get confused.
I couldn't understand why it was a good idea to store in secondary for a while (for yeast clean up), but why couldn't that work be done by yeast in a keg or bottle?

I must admit to following the week in primary, week in secondary then keg / bottle route, mainly because I'm still learning and its worked for me so far.
Apart from 1 brew I had in secondary too long which got a mold

I also totally agree with Kev that most homebrewers have to earn a crust as well so its generally a weekly cycle, with main homebrew jobs assigned to the weekend.

Really pleased as following this topic I'm tempted to knock the 'secondary' stage on the head.
(I mostly use a fermenting fridge so primary is nearly always completed in week 1.)
Thanks.
ATB John

[weiht]

personally, i would not pull my beer out after 3-5 days in the fermentor. I do not see much harm coming from leaving the beer a few days more in the FV and increasing the temperature a little just to make the yeast clean the beer up. I think pulling the beer too early is worse than pulling it out too late from the FV. Remember, the yeast is what makes wort beer, and temperature control etc is important because we wanna provide the yeast the best condition to do its job. Yeast thats stressed out will produce off flavours, so I would let the yeast complete its job before racking.

On the other point, its interesting to note that we homebrewers are conditioning our beers longer than the commercial guys. Yes, they need a quick turnover because it business for them. However, its interesting that most of us feel our beers do not peak with 2 weeks of maturing, and some even say they drink their beers 1 month after racking and some extreme cases of 6 months. For me, my beers start peaking after 3 weeks onwards. Yet, alot of the commercial craft beers taste great even with a shorter time conditioning. From what i understand, its about 7 days in the primary then its crashed chilled, fined and racked into cask and will be conditioned for about a week before being distributed, then its sits in the cellar of the pub for another 2-3 days before serving, so thats about 2 weeks. I wonder if it will taste even nicer at 1 month, or maybe the beer just completely changes

[smbenn]

Thanks Weiht - completely agree with you. And re. conditioning, that's my take too. I also wonder what a normal 4% commercial brew would taste like after 1 month or more ... Obviously begs the question when is a beer really ready?

I've got a strong feeling (based on quick tastings) that my latest batch (7 days to drop from 1061 to an impressive 1010), then kegged, primed and 2 days in the warm, then out into the garage today) will be ready in about another week, but conventional (home) brew wisdom says give it another 5 weeks or so. Obviously it'll improve in that time but ...

[InsideEdge]

I think some of the ideas around really long conditioning times have come over from the American homebrew forums.

I just did a batch where primary was 10 days, then droppped the temp to about 10 C for 3 days then bottled. It was star bright after just 1 week and tasted superb. This was with windsor yeast which is supposed to take an age to clear.

[trucker5774]

Regular members will be familiar with my "short cuts"...........often 9 days from yeast pitched to drinking

[smbenn]

Regular members will be familiar with my "short cuts"...........often 9 days from yeast pitched to drinking

Ah yes trucker, was aware that you did this so the obvious question: have you got a brilliant method or are just impatient?

[trucker5774]

Impatient?..........................Yes But what I do is pretty much on the same lines as a commercial brewery. The main difference is that I don't use finings, But i drink with my taste buds, not my eyes! Even my priming when I bottle is often done in the primary FV

[Kev888]

I think you're maybe under-valuing your own expertise here; If there was a reason to then probably I could get down to a couple of weeks with a third or fourth generation of re-harvested yeast and a low gravity brew, but i'd be unlikely to get it that quick with what I know; it'd always taste yeasty and need the rough edges conditioning in. Thats really impressive!

Cheers
Kev

[trucker5774]

Thanks for the praise, Kev, but I guess I'm just lucky (or not fussy) 9 days is a drinkable beer (I particularly like the hoppy beers a little green) but certainly 14 days is a regular time for me. By the time my beers are mature, a state which I find a little mysterious, they are usually half gone. I have never noticed a massive difference with age, other than perhaps in clarity. (crystal clear, rather than plenty clear enough!)