Problems I cannot find the answer to?

[PhilB]

Hi cumbrianwolf

If they come back with a number less than around 30mg/l as CaCo3, say, then you should probably start a new thread over in the "Brewing Liquor" sub-forum because you're gonna need some more specialist advice As I understand it, increasing alkalinity is quite a complicated process

If it's well above there, I'm barking up the wrong tree completely

Cheers, PhilB

[cumbrianwolf]

Oh great I was hoping to move away from the formula and sciences as I can spend just as much time working things out as I can be brewing, I am using the brew mate program for most of my calculations rather than doing it by hand as I once did!
Regards John

[Matt12398]

Raising alkalinity can be a challenge if you're trying to do it with something like chalk as it's not very soluble in water but sparing amounts of sodium bicarbonate can be used to raise the mash pH. Too much and you can push the sodium content over the flavour threshold. I've used it with my incredibly low alkalinity water to brew stouts and porters successfully.

[cumbrianwolf]

Thanks for that input and it is one to consider as I have some issues with my water for sure and until United Utilities come back to me which I think will be Monday now.

[simmyb]

Hi Cumbrianwolf,

Your Water analysis has hardness given as degrees Clarke. This is equivalent I think to 62.47 mg as CaCO3. I have put this in to Graham Wheelers Liquor treatment calculator (link in the Calculators section at the top of the page) along with the given values of Calcium, Sodium and Magnesium and then juggled the Sulphates and Chlorides to get the ions to Balance. This has given figures of:

Calcium 17.8 mg
Magnesium 4.64 mg
Sodium 14.7mg
Carbonate 37.46
Sulphate 17mg
Chloride 11mg

To acheive the General Purpose Water profile on the calculator, the required additions for 40 LITRES would be:

8ml CRS to reduce Alkalinity
8.67g Gypsum
4.65g Calcium Chloride
2.17g Epsom salts
0.54g table salt

I would also use half a campden tablet to remove Chlorine/Chloramine. I think this wouldn't be a bad place to start with your water, but it may be best to do a batch with Tesco's Ashbeck water perhaps as Ovenhiker suggested. Also, I would probably thoroughly clean all your kit with PBW and Starsan or similar to make sure there are no lurgies lurking around.

Good Luck!!

Cheers, Simon

[simple one]

Does your water taste ok out the tap? Yes? Your water is fine. Cumbrian water is brilliant for brewing. It is ideal for making anything but the blackest of stouts (and even then they shouldn't taste like orange squash and pumps!). Even crap brewing water will make beer that tastes and smells like beer.

If you have made good beer before, and your beer isn't tasting right now (using same recipes). If now it always tastes and smells similar even though you are using different ingredients.... then I am afraid It's either an infection or contamination.

Infection - something isn't clean and sanitised when being used on the cold side.

Contamination - an accidental addition of a chemical or addition of oxygen/contaminants to the finished beer.

Breakdown your brewing kit (and taps, esp on barrels). Clean everything and reassemble. Review your process, invite another brewer round to brew with you (offer beer).

[simple one]

I would also question your fermenting temperatures, and procedure for keeping it cool.

Also build an immersion cooler. The bath method is not ideal.... Those bottle are going in the bath aren't they? Not in the hot wort?

[cumbrianwolf]

A full strip down and sterilisation of my equipment is in order that is for sure as a just in case.
Yes my water tastes nice and it is not offensive to the palette or the nose and the chlorine does not seem overly strong compared to the town I used to live in where the water smelled like swimming pool.

Obviously in the summer it can be a bit of a task to maintain the fermentation and secondary temperatures but with most of my Ale brewing I opted for a thermostatic heater and try to maintain 18-20oC and any lagers that I have brewed was during the winter months and slowly fermented at around 10-13oC in the spare bedroom.

I have never used an immersion chiller before as we are on a water meter and I use enough water as it is, as for the bath water immersion method this has never let me down in the past and the large bottles of frozen water are a new addition for the summer months so that I could bring the surrounding water down to a much lower temperature.

I am almost 99% certain this has got to be related to my water supply as my previous brews which there have been hundreds of gallons made have all turned out excellent and this was using the same routine that I am using now, but from a different location in Cumbria with a different water supply to this one I am currently using.

[cumbrianwolf]

Hi Cumbrianwolf,

Your Water analysis has hardness given as degrees Clarke. This is equivalent I think to 62.47 mg as CaCO3. I have put this in to Graham Wheelers Liquor treatment calculator (link in the Calculators section at the top of the page) along with the given values of Calcium, Sodium and Magnesium and then juggled the Sulphates and Chlorides to get the ions to Balance. This has given figures of:

Calcium 17.8 mg
Magnesium 4.64 mg
Sodium 14.7mg
Carbonate 37.46
Sulphate 17mg
Chloride 11mg

To achieve the General Purpose Water profile on the calculator, the required additions for 40 LITRES would be:

8ml CRS to reduce Alkalinity
8.67g Gypsum
4.65g Calcium Chloride
2.17g Epsom salts
0.54g table salt

I would also use half a campden tablet to remove Chlorine/Chloramine. I think this wouldn't be a bad place to start with your water, but it may be best to do a batch with Tesco's Ashbeck water perhaps as Ovenhiker suggested. Also, I would probably thoroughly clean all your kit with PBW and Starsan or similar to make sure there are no lurgies lurking around.

Good Luck!!

Cheers, Simon

Thanks for the information Simon, looks as though I may not be adding enough of the beneficial salts and I will obviously look at the Brupak CRS as the high PH 7.4 is not the normality for a very soft water source which is usually low and acidic in the ranges of 6.0-6.8 then again with such a low mineral content and lack of buffering salts the PH can fluctuate with the addition of gases such as carbon dioxide as I found out from my days as a professional aquarist as water treatment was critical for all the varieties of livestock we held.

[simmyb]

Bear in mind that those additions are for treating 40 litres...

[simple one]

Hi Cumbrianwolf,

Your Water analysis has hardness given as degrees Clarke. This is equivalent I think to 62.47 mg as CaCO3. I have put this in to Graham Wheelers Liquor treatment calculator (link in the Calculators section at the top of the page) along with the given values of Calcium, Sodium and Magnesium and then juggled the Sulphates and Chlorides to get the ions to Balance. This has given figures of:

Calcium 17.8 mg
Magnesium 4.64 mg
Sodium 14.7mg
Carbonate 37.46
Sulphate 17mg
Chloride 11mg

To achieve the General Purpose Water profile on the calculator, the required additions for 40 LITRES would be:

8ml CRS to reduce Alkalinity
8.67g Gypsum
4.65g Calcium Chloride
2.17g Epsom salts
0.54g table salt

I would also use half a campden tablet to remove Chlorine/Chloramine. I think this wouldn't be a bad place to start with your water, but it may be best to do a batch with Tesco's Ashbeck water perhaps as Ovenhiker suggested. Also, I would probably thoroughly clean all your kit with PBW and Starsan or similar to make sure there are no lurgies lurking around.

Good Luck!!

Cheers, Simon

Thanks for the information Simon, looks as though I may not be adding enough of the beneficial salts and I will obviously look at the Brupak CRS as the high PH 7.4 is not the normality for a very soft water source which is usually low and acidic in the ranges of 6.0-6.8 then again with such a low mineral content and lack of buffering salts the PH can fluctuate with the addition of gases such as carbon dioxide as I found out from my days as a professional aquarist as water treatment was critical for all the varieties of livestock we held.

I can tell you now, your water does not have an alkalinity over 50ppm. It's pretty much rain water straight out of a reservoir. I doubt it'll be over 30....

Don't add any acid. Your alkalinity will be low. Just add a teaspoon of gypsum to the mash and boil. Nothing else. It's your mash pH and the wort pH that should only concern you not your liquor pH.

The pH is always 'high' out of the tap (7-8). The water company ensure this is the case as a low pH would cause stripping and leaching of ions on its journey to your tap.

The sodium may be a bit high, but your water isn't the problem. Is there anything else that changed with the move? Brewing kit? Hoses? Tubing? It could be coincidence that the move matched the time you have noticed the off tastes.

[Eric]

A full strip down and sterilisation of my equipment is in order that is for sure as a just in case.

Yes, can't do any harm and might solve the problem.

Yes my water tastes nice and it is not offensive to the palette or the nose and the chlorine does not seem overly strong compared to the town I used to live in where the water smelled like swimming pool.

"where the water smelled like swimming pool" and "there have been hundreds of gallons made have all turned out excellent using the same routine". While I daily read opinions of how chorine spoiled their beer, that's something I've to experience in fifty years of brewing.

Obviously in the summer it can be a bit of a task to maintain the fermentation and secondary temperatures but with most of my Ale brewing I opted for a thermostatic heater and try to maintain 18-20oC and any lagers that I have brewed was during the winter months and slowly fermented at around 10-13oC in the spare bedroom.

So this can be ruled out as the cause.

I have never used an immersion chiller before as we are on a water meter and I use enough water as it is, as for the bath water immersion method this has never let me down in the past and the large bottles of frozen water are a new addition for the summer months so that I could bring the surrounding water down to a much lower temperature.

I'm not on a meter, so no concern for me, but after chilling yesterday's brew I'd collected 10 litres of very hot water, 10 of quite hot water and 40 litres of warm water for cleaning. Maybe 30 pence cost to metered properties, but worth it many times over for the improvement in the finished beer although it's maybe not the cause of your current problem.

I am almost 99% certain this has got to be related to my water supply as my previous brews which there have been hundreds of gallons made have all turned out excellent and this was using the same routine that I am using now, but from a different location in Cumbria with a different water supply to this one I am currently using.

I'd agree. While your current water doesn't appear to have the mineral qualities necessary to make a great stout, those properties don't cause the troubles you have. I'm wondering if the lesser level of chlorination has exposed a weakness in your sanitation procedure?

[cumbrianwolf]

Some really good points there Eric, of all the quality kit I own you would think I would have such a thing as an immersion wort chiller by now and it will be on my list of things to invest in, it will not cure my problem, but it will add the polish to my subsequent brews after I have solved the problem. And from what you have said it will use less water than that of a bath full up to the brim with water which is around 10-15 gallons!

You are right with regards to the chlorine which I have never ever fussed about before and never seen any ills caused by it but at this time I am giving any thing a possible thought. The flavours are there in my brews but masked somewhat by the tang and a flavour that predominates them and I will sanitise everything I uses to make sure it is not this but I very much doubt it as all the kit is sanitised before and afterwards, but as I know in the past it only takes one piece of equipment.

Thank You

[Eric]

As you well know, good beer can be made without a chiller, I too did without for many years. The difference one makes is much of that between good and better beer while your major current concern is that between good and bad. I think you may have been a victim of your circumstances as it is possible your previous water supply kept all bugs at bay while your current supply doesn't.

I'd suggest you get a bottle or two of cheap thin unscented bleach, about 30p for 2 litres. Use a cupful in 20 litres of tapwater for sanitation purposes but maybe a little stronger for the job in hand. Clean and then sanitise everything the beer touches or is enclosed by from the the boiler onward, including its tap. Rinse with tapwater, don't over do it, using some sod met or a bit of Campden tablet if you've concern of residual chlorine. Replace any part that looks like it could be contaminated.

As your water seems ideal for it, can I suggest you brew an all pale malt brew next? Doing so with unremarkable hops and yeast it will reduce chances of any unusual smells or taints. Add a level spoon of gypsum to the mash water and mix well, then a big one to the boil. A question on the Brewing Liquor section before you brew your beloved stout could pay dividends.

A simple immersion chiller doesn't need to be a work of art. A length of 8 or 10mm copper pipe is easily formed to suit your boiler. Make sure both ends are clear of the side and below the top of that vessel to avoid any spillage problems. The inlet end of mine is soldered to a short piece of 15mm pipe onto which is one of these

The chiller is put into the boiler at least 15 before the end of the boil to be sanitised. It's easily cleaned afterwards using a cloth or pan scrub as you've enough warm water at hand.
Good luck.

[Deebee]

Bottled water is the best starting place. 2 l costs 17 p at asda!

try it, if it solves the problem then look at what you need to do, if not then we can start looking at the rest of the system.