Haze

[Dan]

Ive been reading this post for the last 2 hrs and have been trying to sort my chill/perminat haze out for 6 months

heres my brew day
mash 5.2-5.3
sparge 5.8
starch end point passed
boil ph 5.3
proafloc whirl floc irish moss tried em all
chilled to 20 - 15 - 10 - 5
fermented with safale and nottingham
matured for weeks

Its total hit and miss sometimes it comes and sometimes it doesnt

Vossy seeing as we both use the brew shop on the A6 what fawcett malts have you been using?

I have had better resuls from the lager
not so good from the marris otter
and plain bad from the halcyon

I buy crushed btw

[DRB]

This is what I got back from murphys when asked about polyclar (PVVP).



Chill haze is usually caused by protein coming out of solution as the beer is cooled. To prevent this happening you need to treat the beer to remove the protein. The best products to use are either proteolytic enzyme (NDB3 100Tu) or silica hydrogel (Daraclar 920). The PVPP products remove polyphenols and tannins that cause have over time (usually in bottled beers) and not chill haze. If you want to remove both proteins and polyphenols/tannins there is a blended product with both silica and PVPP called Polyclar Plus 730. I have attached data sheets for each of the products.

[Vossy1]

I'm also interested in why you've gone through so many pumps What caused you to change them out?

I haven't really gone through that many The Totton couldn't handle liquids over 80+ deg c, the March may was a bugger to prime...in the position I wanted it, and I have to brew in the kitchen whilst the Mrs watches tv in the living room which in our house are quite close...and when it was restricted to recirc the HERMS it became too noisy...for this use...though not noisy at all really...if your not brewing nearly in your front room
The RG550 I never got round to testing on the HERMS due to concerns over tripping out, as mentioned by JA, and then I thought feck it and did what I should have done in the first place and bought a purpose made pump for my needs

[Seveneer]

You must have been extremely unlucky as I am very happy with my Totton pumps. Not noisy, not difficult to prime and no need to go above 80C.

In the meantime, maybe its worth looking at using some gelatine.

[Dan]

gelatine can definately help with haze removal (not just yeast removal) chill the beer below 10C preferably as low as you can to get the haze to appear and mix the finings. leave for a 3-7 days.
Ive got a couple to clear properly using supercook geletine from the supermarket.
Ive just put some in a lager 3 days ago at 5C

[Vossy1]

You must have been extremely unlucky as I am very happy with my Totton pumps. Not noisy, not difficult to prime and no need to go above 80C.

7, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick on my previous post.
It was the March May that was noisy (when restricted) and a bugger to prime, not the Totton...it just didn't like +80 deg c liquids, and besides, the Totton I have is nowhere near the same spec as the one you use
Perhaps you could do a review of your pump/s for the forum.

I was trying to cut sanitisers out of the 'chilling cycle' by pumping boiling wort through the cooling system prior to cooling...something I'm still trying to incorperate into the system. This in itself needs a pump capable of pumping boiling liquids.

I'll try the gelatine approach...I've not done it before, thanks 7 & Dan.

I'm not sure what's gone wrong on this batch. I have another pale which will mature shortly...lets hope that's clear. I have been having problems with prolonged cooling...maybe that's contributing to the problem, but I can't see it.

DRB, I looked at the 730 a while back based on your research but I found I couldn't get it in a small/cheap enough quantity

DAN, Yes I use Fawcetts from stockport. I have used the Marris Otter predominantly in all my brews and yes it's the crushed stuff.
I've just started using Warminster and Muntons MO so if I start to see a better beer...you'll know why.

I'll get there in the end

[subsub]

Just a thought Vossy, but a real test would be a 5 gallon batch the old fashioned way, and see if you get haze

[Seveneer]

Just a thought Vossy, but a real test would be a 5 gallon batch the old fashioned way, and see if you get haze

I agree.

I'm wondering if it's possible that recirculating too quickly will extract tannins by forcing the wort through the grain bed. I certainly think I had this issue when I changed the configuration of my setup.

Eventually I tracked it down to an airlock in the heat exchanger coil. I now recirculate my mash liquor through it with the pump at full bore, to clear any air, before I start the mash. This eliminates the restriction caused by the airlock and allows recirculation without compacting the grain bed.

Just a thought.

/Phil.

[Dan]

this is a bit of a cheat, but i can almost gurentee it will work.

throw an ounze of crushed black malt into the mash 10 mins before the end
yes it will darken the wort (not considerably) but the beer wont throw the same haze later down the line

I did this with a lager, its a little darker than i wanted but it can work with any beer style.

[Dan]

sorry for double posting

Seveneer: I'm wondering if it's possible that recirculating too quickly will extract tannins by forcing the wort through the grain bed.

i know it sounds funny but, try tasting the run off before, during and after reciculation, if you detect an slightly stale/carmel (gets the back of your throat) during the reciculation you maybe experiancing what seveneer is sujesting.

I ve noticed it before but never really associated it with a haze. experimenting this sunday

[Gurgeh]

this is a bit of a cheat, but i can almost gurentee it will work.

throw an ounze of crushed black malt into the mash 10 mins before the end
yes it will darken the wort (not considerably) but the beer wont throw the same haze later down the line

I did this with a lager, its a little darker than i wanted but it can work with any beer style.

what's the theory/experience behind that then?

[Dan]

"from 'The Home Brewer's Companion' (Avon Books, 1994)by Charlie Papazian.

Here's a little gem that will reduce chill haze and reduce harshness: Add about 1 ounce (28 g.) of finely crushed black malt to your light beers at the end of the mash. The addition will not affect color significantly but will adsorb some of the polyphenols, tannins and long-chained proteins that cause chill haze and astringent character in beers. Some of the largest brewing companies in the United States use this method for some of the lightest of their beers. You may have already noticed that chill haze is less of a problem - even nonexistent - in dark beers. Aha"

in practice it will darken a pale lager so watch out but it works for me. I am still trying to produce a reliably clear beer without it though

[Gurgeh]

I'll have a go at that then - just up the proportion of lager malt in the recipe i'm working on to balance it out!

Thanks Dan!

[delboy]

What sort of increase in the SRM/EBC colour of the brew would that ounce of black malt at 10 mins produce?

[Vossy1]

Cheers chaps...there's a bit to go at there

7, Interestingly (for me anyway ) I had some channelling issue's on my last batch, the Hefe, and on this batch I had doubled the recirc rate to 4lt/min.
Basically I was starting to play with flow rates now the false bottom's strength isn't an issue. I think I'll be knocking this idea on the head, based on your feedback, cheers
I don't suffer from airlocks in the system as I throw the liquor through the HE at full bore, prior to doughing in, much like yourself.
I may have some HSA issues when running off the sparge as the last couple of litres throws a lot of air into the hose, as the run off comes through at a trickle, and isn't enough to fill the bore of the hose.

Interesting about the black malt Dan, I might be trying that one